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EvyL #1 Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:34 PM

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its not surprising if there were destroyed vehicles littering around the battlefield since being in a tank in war tends to attract the ordnance of your enemy counterparts, artillery and planes wanting to crack the shell since your vehicle is a daunting asset in your army but when its time to recover the poor banged up things, some stuff ran through my mind...

 

-what exactly defines "knocked out" tank? since stuff I frequently read is that tanks were either "destroyed by KO", incapacitated or their crews GTFO'd. afaik a knocked out tank can still be sort of repaired, incapacitated ones can be unstuck, abandoned ones can be crewed (assuming that the crew who GTFO'd didnt die) and destroyed ones are those that cant be saved and may be deemed scrap.

 

-I read that some Shermans that were lucky enough to be knocked out but with its crews... not so much would be dragged back into a depot, fixed and refurbished and another crew would let it roll out again as well as the Germans' own Tiger I that when it couldnt be blasted to bits altogether (I think it was the norm for the Allies should they encounter one that they should blast it to kingdom come) and was mostly intact despite being KO'd, it was to be recovered and refurbished to let it roll once again with the crew who survived the tank being KO'd. the Russians on the other hand... well... iirc most of their vehicles such as the T-34-76 would literally blow up when they were blasted upon and only a few amount had the luck to be towed the crap away to be refurbished and stuff and KO'd IS-2's as well as the SU's and ISU's were... uh... scuttled by their own crews to prevent capture.

 

-destroyed vehicles may still have stuff that the tanks can use. "hey bro, one of our return wheels just got blasted. try to yank out that one's return wheel and see if it still works."

 

random babbling is over.

 

that is all.


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ROCKSTARPOETRY #2 Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:11 PM

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_stevethegecko_ #3 Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:39 PM

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View PostEvyL, on 28 April 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

its not surprising if there were destroyed vehicles littering around the battlefield since being in a tank in war tends to attract the ordnance of your enemy counterparts, artillery and planes wanting to crack the shell since your vehicle is a daunting asset in your army but when its time to recover the poor banged up things, some stuff ran through my mind...

 

-what exactly defines "knocked out" tank? since stuff I frequently read is that tanks were either "destroyed by KO", incapacitated or their crews GTFO'd. afaik a knocked out tank can still be sort of repaired, incapacitated ones can be unstuck, abandoned ones can be crewed (assuming that the crew who GTFO'd didnt die) and destroyed ones are those that cant be saved and may be deemed scrap.

 

-I read that some Shermans that were lucky enough to be knocked out but with its crews... not so much would be dragged back into a depot, fixed and refurbished and another crew would let it roll out again as well as the Germans' own Tiger I that when it couldnt be blasted to bits altogether (I think it was the norm for the Allies should they encounter one that they should blast it to kingdom come) and was mostly intact despite being KO'd, it was to be recovered and refurbished to let it roll once again with the crew who survived the tank being KO'd. the Russians on the other hand... well... iirc most of their vehicles such as the T-34-76 would literally blow up when they were blasted upon and only a few amount had the luck to be towed the crap away to be refurbished and stuff and KO'd IS-2's as well as the SU's and ISU's were... uh... scuttled by their own crews to prevent capture.

 

-destroyed vehicles may still have stuff that the tanks can use. "hey bro, one of our return wheels just got blasted. try to yank out that one's return wheel and see if it still works."

 

random babbling is over.

 

that is all.

A Pershing got knocked out by a penetrating 88mm shot through the mantlet which killed the gunner. The tank was repaired and resumed service, with a new gunner of course.


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wasaabi #4 Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:56 PM

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Pretty common in WWII for crews to abandon a tank under fire if if got stuck for some reason, then sneak back at night and recover it, I have read stories from both sides (Axis and Allies that is).

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_stevethegecko_ #5 Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:59 PM

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The Tiger in Bovington was abandoned (and not scuttled) by the crew when a 6lbr shell got wedged in the mantlet.

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_WMD_ #6 Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:40 PM

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View PostEvyL, on 28 April 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

-I read that some Shermans that were lucky enough to be knocked out but with its crews... not so much would be dragged back into a depot, fixed and refurbished and another crew would let it roll out again as well as the Germans' own Tiger I that when it couldnt be blasted to bits altogether (I think it was the norm for the Allies should they encounter one that they should blast it to kingdom come) and was mostly intact despite being KO'd, it was to be recovered and refurbished to let it roll once again with the crew who survived the tank being KO'd. the Russians on the other hand... well... iirc most of their vehicles such as the T-34-76 would literally blow up when they were blasted upon and only a few amount had the luck to be towed the crap away to be refurbished and stuff and KO'd IS-2's as well as the SU's and ISU's were... uh... scuttled by their own crews to prevent capture.

 

Firstly let me address Russians.
The T34s held ready ammo inside the turret ring, when the Germans penetrated the turret the results were that the ammunition exploded was fatal for the tank crews. Of course the Russians had carefully analyse this and realized the flew in there tank design. However rather then implementing individual shell shields, moving shells into the hull, spacing the ammo, the Russian felt that it was not worth the extra cost and would slow down the rate of fire. Thus Russians tank crews continued to paid a heavy price in lives. Not only that but Stalin held back the improvements to tanks in order to keep production numbers high.
Russian tank units had very minimal recovery, support and logistic for servicing and recovering tanks. Compared with the Germans whom had excellent recovery equipment (and the Germans needed it given the less reliable tiger and panther tanks). Russian tank corp equivalent of division had no specialist recovery or towing tanks. I think they had some old T-70s and a few trucks.
Generally who ever-won the engagement / battle would control the battlefield which enabled tank recovery, When the Germans lost they too abandoned working tanks, and recoverable tanks.

The Americans of course had massive fire power and they used it to deal with German Tigers. And why not, tankers would call M7 to lay down 155mm fire on Tiger hoping to crack open the weak welds and kill the crew inside. Remove any cover, camo, force the crew to button up, destroy optics, radios. Force the Tiger from its superior position before engaging.
 

 

 


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EvyL #7 Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:29 PM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 28 April 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

The Tiger in Bovington was abandoned (and not scuttled) by the crew when a 6lbr shell got wedged in the mantlet.

 

wait, I thought that thing was "borrowed by force" when the turret jammed.


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Freelandr #8 Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:32 PM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 28 April 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

A Pershing got knocked out by a penetrating 88mm shot through the mantlet which killed the gunner. The tank was repaired and resumed service, with a new gunner of course.

 

I lol'd :)


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Jan #9 Posted 29 April 2014 - 06:59 AM

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the early "M4 Sherman" is a Moving BBQ grille,a penetrating shot on it guarantees tank on flames 80% along with its crew

 

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karl0ssus1 #10 Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:18 AM

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View PostEvyL, on 29 April 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

 

wait, I thought that thing was "borrowed by force" when the turret jammed.

Pretty much. Having finally got lucky, the guys who had been hunting the Tiger (for some time now), assaulted it sharpish when they realised it was disabled so that the crew would be unable to demo it.


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Alt__F4 #11 Posted 29 April 2014 - 12:27 PM

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There was a doco on foxtel once where they interviewed people regarding the Sherman and in particular there was a poor sod who had the job of jumping into the damaged tanks and cleaning out all the blood, guts, goo and other body parts of the crew that were in there when the tank was hit. Not a job i would like thank you very much.

mttspiii #12 Posted 29 April 2014 - 12:56 PM

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View PostAlt__F4, on 29 April 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

There was a doco on foxtel once where they interviewed people regarding the Sherman and in particular there was a poor sod who had the job of jumping into the damaged tanks and cleaning out all the blood, guts, goo and other body parts of the crew that were in there when the tank was hit. Not a job i would like thank you very much.

Why won't they just leave the body parts in the tank, to remind the new crew not to do the same mistakes as the old crew?


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EvyL #13 Posted 29 April 2014 - 09:54 PM

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even a grim reminder as that, one can't expect that if a Sherman got blasted by a PaK gun and turned a couple of crewmen into raw hamburger the replacing people would make the same mistake as crossing into the muzzle of another PaK unless the engineers told them that the particular Sherman that they were designated had been blasted by such... right?
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Yekaterina #14 Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:02 AM

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"Knocked Out" generally means "No longer actively participating in the battle." The degree of damage it sustained will vary. There's mobility kills, firepower kills, and the pray-to-god-doesnt-happen-to-you catastrophic kills, etc.

 

Honestly there's no real standard for that either. The Bovington Tiger was recovered after being abandoned under hilarious (for the British) circumstances.

 

The part about ammo being stored inside the turret ring of Russian tanks isnt entiiiirely true for the T-34, though most crews generally did (the bulk of the ammo was under the floor and actually hard to get to). This did however, become very true when they started using autoloaders to replace the 4th man in their vehicles. This is why so many export T-72s ended their service by being K-killed.


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Retia #15 Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:06 AM

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View PostYekaterina, on 29 April 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

"Knocked Out" generally means "No longer actively participating in the battle." The degree of damage it sustained will vary. There's mobility kills, firepower kills, and the pray-to-god-doesnt-happen-to-you catastrophic kills, etc.

 

Honestly there's no real standard for that either. The Bovington Tiger was recovered after being abandoned under hilarious (for the British) circumstances.

 

The part about ammo being stored inside the turret ring of Russian tanks isnt entiiiirely true for the T-34, though most crews generally did (the bulk of the ammo was under the floor and actually hard to get to). This did however, become very true when they started using autoloaders to replace the 4th man in their vehicles. This is why so many export T-72s ended their service by being K-killed.

 

I also heard that it's important to always have strong radios nearby to call in the needed recovery vehicles.

 


 

 

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EvyL #16 Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:28 PM

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View PostYekaterina, on 30 April 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

"Knocked Out" generally means "No longer actively participating in the battle." The degree of damage it sustained will vary. There's mobility kills, firepower kills, and the pray-to-god-doesnt-happen-to-you catastrophic kills, etc.

 

Honestly there's no real standard for that either. The Bovington Tiger was recovered after being abandoned under hilarious (for the British) circumstances.

 

The part about ammo being stored inside the turret ring of Russian tanks isnt entiiiirely true for the T-34, though most crews generally did (the bulk of the ammo was under the floor and actually hard to get to). This did however, become very true when they started using autoloaders to replace the 4th man in their vehicles. This is why so many export T-72s ended their service by being K-killed.

 

but wasnt that issue slightly fixed with the T-72M?

 

so that means the generalization of a KO is that the tank is messed up and cannon fire, move or do squat? IMO, a k-kill shouldn't be considered a KO since its literally blowing up the vehicle instead of putting it out of action... normally.


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karl0ssus1 #17 Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

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View PostYekaterina, on 30 April 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

 

Yeka has returned?

 

View PostEvyL, on 30 April 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

 

but wasnt that issue slightly fixed with the T-72M?

 

so that means the generalization of a KO is that the tank is messed up and cannon fire, move or do squat? IMO, a k-kill shouldn't be considered a KO since its literally blowing up the vehicle instead of putting it out of action... normally.

Knocked out is a bit of a catch-all, it basically means that the tank in question was no longer able to partake in the fight, for whatever reason, be that of the utterly catastrophic pray-it-was-quick variety, or the utterly mundane mobility kill variety. You could further separate this (and no doubt they do), but for simplicity's sake, calling it knocked out will do.


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Yekaterina #18 Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:47 PM

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If the tank is no longer able to participate, its knocked out. Usually the crew is dead or has abandoned it, regardless of the actual damage to the tank, basically. By definition, a k-kill would be a knock out. Just one that cant be recovered from.

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LeSigh #19 Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

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Wow.  Yekat.  This is going straight the FAME thread.
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Yekaterina #20 Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:25 PM

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Work's been taking a hell of a toll on me. I should drop by the TS again and greet people now and then. But I digress.

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