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Another suggestion to counter premium ammunition spam

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ZULUL_Warrior #81 Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:08 PM

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View Post_MadCow_, on 14 August 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

not entirely fair there, some heavies like your e100s etc are expected to take the hits for you team which yes most you can bounce but a heap of prem shells go through easily despite all the angling in the world (you have to fire at some point and point your turret around... and this means you have to face only 1 direction of enemies...) In this case its not lazy.... Lazy would be like the idiot heavies in a few games last night who did not use thier armour at all to absorb potential damage and hence lost us the game through sheer camping ineffectiveness.

 

alas that e100 police light on top of the turret? maybe i edited my last post abit too late. Yes armor is a safeguard, but not foolproof, in general. I do not believe in overexposure when playing as a heavy or a heavily armored tank 

 

 


Edited by crazib, 14 August 2014 - 01:09 PM.

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veegeetablee #82 Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

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View PostKitsune_Hime, on 14 August 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

Am I the only one who uses credits for premium ammo and not gold?  :/

 

2 matches of casual ACPR use against priority targets in a T-44 can be recouped by a single match in a T34 (with premium account)

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_MadCow_ #83 Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:34 PM

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View Postcrazib, on 14 August 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

 

alas that e100 police light on top of the turret? maybe i edited my last post abit too late. Yes armor is a safeguard, but not foolproof, in general. I do not believe in overexposure when playing as a heavy or a heavily armored tank

 

 

true true, but if your not absorbing the potential dmg then your weaker skinned team mates are getting shot up anyhow, = loss, or i thought it did. I have to admit recently ive decided not to do this as unless the ppl next to me are green or better I almost fully expect them to do stupid stuff anyhow and still get hit despite all my attempts to take the hits 'for the team' so recently ive decided to play allot more like I have no armour despite having armour and fendning for myself, at least then ill still have enough hp left by the late stages of the game to 'try' to carry or go down swinging.... yes the little observation port at the top of my e100 seems to be perfect for somehow destroying my whole tank.... althugh its easier to just shoot the bar anyhow which is bigger and competely flat



SilentKilla #84 Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:34 PM

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View Postcrazib, on 14 August 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

^

 

this is so true, i have bounced off alot of HEAT(premium ammo) shells in my 140, because of a good position that i took up in clan war(sidescraping), yet i still survive, that t62a was spamming 27 HEAT at me yet, what all it took for me is i waited for the right moment and killed him in 3 shots with regular APCR. 

 

i still see no problem with premium ammo in this game, rather positioning and tank maneuvering is of utter key importance, Players who depend on armor too much  are just lazy players who do not know how to take cover after every shot. And because of that they blame the better players for premium ammo spam. But sorry i blame it on their incompetence .

 

with the general widespread of weakspot knowledge, i believe its better for avoidance rather then overexposure.

 

Even a is7 that is perfectly hull down can be still penetrated, why? there's a RNG chance that a shot might go to the cupola. Happened to my IS7 when i got hit at 400m+

 

Because tanks with a lot of armour can move so well compared to the very quick tanks with none, to which shooting gold at is pointless for that same heavily armoured vehicle. Why should the heavily armoured vehicle get any benefit, clearly!! 204 tanks played btw. In each 1k set of games I play I would guess that I've fired about 5 gold/prem rounds maximum. IS7 is certainly one of the hardest I've come across lately to pen with normal rounds, based on every tree I have being pretty much up to 8-10 now.



ZULUL_Warrior #85 Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:45 PM

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View Post_MadCow_, on 14 August 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

true true, but if your not absorbing the potential dmg then your weaker skinned team mates are getting shot up anyhow, = loss, or i thought it did. I have to admit recently ive decided not to do this as unless the ppl next to me are green or better I almost fully expect them to do stupid stuff anyhow and still get hit despite all my attempts to take the hits 'for the team' so recently ive decided to play allot more like I have no armour despite having armour and fendning for myself, at least then ill still have enough hp left by the late stages of the game to 'try' to carry or go down swinging.... yes the little observation port at the top of my e100 seems to be perfect for somehow destroying my whole tank.... althugh its easier to just shoot the bar anyhow which is bigger and competely flat

 

absorbing potential damage is not a contest, rather its how many shots that you put in while exposing your strongest armor thats all matters.


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Fendalton #86 Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:10 PM

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View Postcrazib, on 14 August 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

 

absorbing potential damage is not a contest, rather its how many shots that you put in while exposing your strongest armor thats all matters.

 

It will be when it's measured in-game, which is being worked on.



Mibu_No_Ookami #87 Posted 14 August 2014 - 04:32 PM

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View PostFendalton, on 14 August 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

 

It will be when it's measured in-game, which is being worked on.

 

I doubt it, unless they can find a way to release metrics of 'shots deflected by armour' for every tank since the dawn of WoT, otherwise it's still not going to make it into WN'X', and correspondingly makes WN'X' even less relevant.



Stoyak #88 Posted 14 August 2014 - 05:55 PM

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View PostSilentKilla, on 14 August 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

 

Because tanks with a lot of armour can move so well compared to the very quick tanks with none, to which shooting gold at is pointless for that same heavily armoured vehicle. Why should the heavily armoured vehicle get any benefit, clearly!! 204 tanks played btw. In each 1k set of games I play I would guess that I've fired about 5 gold/prem rounds maximum. IS7 is certainly one of the hardest I've come across lately to pen with normal rounds, based on every tree I have being pretty much up to 8-10 now.

 

Wut?  Are you talking about sprem ammo penning your front, or fast tanks flanking you?

 

Sprem ammo to the face isn't coming from fast tanks mate.  You are experienced enough to know it's other heavies doing that.

 

Besides, on what planet is armour not doing well in this game right now?  E100's, IS7's, E75's etc eat shells for breakfast if the player isn't asleep.




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Steeltrap #89 Posted 14 August 2014 - 06:24 PM

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View PostStoyak, on 14 August 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

E100's, IS7's, E75's etc eat shells for breakfast if the player isn't asleep.

 

In the case of the E-100, that works provided the enemy is dumb enough not to shoot your turret face as soon as you try to use your gun then ducks back before you can hit them. Same for the Maus.

 

IS-7s? Yes, unless they can be hit in the lower plate, and most standard rounds would do the trick. Even then, HEAT/APCR (if non-standard round) in turret face close to gun will still work when most AP won't.

 

You commented on the effect alpha has on the game. Fair enough discussion. The fact it's a valid discussion doesn't make this topic any less so.

 

Indeed in some ways they're related. How many E-100s using the 150mm fire AP? If you got rid of premmy ammo for them, how many would revert to the 128mm? Not many I'd think, but the point remains that alpha is only relevant if you pen (excluding those daft 183 HESH rounds), so gold ammo exacerbates the problem of alpha because it enables guns to pen things they otherwise wouldn't, or would stand a far smaller chance of doing so.

 

Who cares if my gun does 750 dam if 75% of the time it bounces, or does a few hundred because people have reverted to HE? Interestingly, WG jacked up the effectiveness of spall liners for the super heavies which is a counter to HE (largely due to arty I suspect).

 

Maybe they will make a 'premium' armour upgrade available like they did external camo; hefty CR cost for a finite period, or gold for permanent. If they were prepared to do that with spall liners, why not again? Besides which it might make them even more money if people are still spamming premmy rounds but have to fire even more of them due to premmy armour upgrades bouncing them.


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soulspectre #90 Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:13 PM

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View PostSteeltrap, on 14 August 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Maybe they will make a 'premium' armour upgrade available like they did external camo; hefty CR cost for a finite period, or gold for permanent. If they were prepared to do that with spall liners, why not again? Besides which it might make them even more money if people are still spamming premmy rounds but have to fire even more of them due to premmy armour upgrades bouncing them.

 

Didn't they consider at one time during Q&A about bringing out a "Reactive Armor" consumable? What a loss to WG's bank balance to the community that that didn't eventuate.



Steeltrap #91 Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:03 PM

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As you rightly said, premium ammo for CR is largely camouflaged pay to win anyway, as anyone other than the OCD crowd or bots won't play enough lower tier battles to cover the expense over time. Have made this point myself previously.

 

Saying something is equally available based on a resource that is not equally available for the same level of effort, which is the situation with CR, is ignorant at best if not outright misleading.

 

 


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Skyguy7567 #92 Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:27 PM

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Something amusing happened today. For 3 games in a row, I was hit by nothing BUT APCR shells (None of which from any APCR-as-standard tanks) in my 13 75.

 

Credits extremely well spent, Moar plz, but only in my paper tonks.


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veegeetablee #93 Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:14 AM

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View PostSkyguy7567, on 14 August 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Something amusing happened today. For 3 games in a row, I was hit by nothing BUT APCR shells (None of which from any APCR-as-standard tanks) in my 13 75.

 

Credits extremely well spent, Moar plz, but only in my paper tonks.

3 games in a row. That is pretty funny. Its also funny when lighter tanks bitch in chat about being hit with premium ammo when pretty clearly it was pre-loaded for a stronger target but the light tank happened to show its face first. What do you expect the enemy to do, a 10sec+ reload just to avoid the shame of firing sprem at a light tank? Moron pubbies everywhere.


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LeSigh #94 Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:24 AM

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Stoyak #95 Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:29 AM

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View PostSteeltrap, on 15 August 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

As you rightly said, premium ammo for CR is largely camouflaged pay to win anyway, as anyone other than the OCD crowd or bots won't play enough lower tier battles to cover the expense over time. Have made this point myself previously.

 

Saying something is equally available based on a resource that is not equally available for the same level of effort, which is the situation with CR, is ignorant at best if not outright misleading.

 

 

 

It's not expensive to use some sprem ammo IF YOU ARE GOOD.  Pen, do damage with them, win games.  You won't lose credits (or atleast very little) and be forced to recoup costs by playing fifty low tier games or spend real money or whatever the thought behind this thread is.

 

I just don't get any of the arguments in this thread.  There are so many legit balance problems in the game, this doesn't even rank for me. (it did before the HEAT nerf, but certainly not now).

 

EDIT: Actually the ironic thing is that sprem ammo is by far cheapest to use on the big high alpha heavies that complain about being hit by it.  Conversely the fast agile tanks that apparently spam it are exorbitantly expensive to run sprem on.  Food for thought.


Edited by Stoyak, 15 August 2014 - 07:52 AM.



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Fendalton #96 Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:33 AM

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View PostMibu_No_Ookami, on 14 August 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

 

I doubt it, unless they can find a way to release metrics of 'shots deflected by armour' for every tank since the dawn of WoT, otherwise it's still not going to make it into WN'X', and correspondingly makes WN'X' even less relevant.

 

WoT Developers don't base their development for awarding XP based on "oh noez can WN8 include it???" WoT doesn't care about WN8 - it's a 3rd party reference.

 

They do release "metrics of 'shots deflected by armour' for every tank" - look in your service record. It even says "Since 0.8.8+"



veegeetablee #97 Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:37 AM

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Wot doesnt care about wn, nor should they. They should create a better internal metric instead

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Fendalton #98 Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:54 AM

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Hit rate is the true measurement of skill.

Ezz #99 Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:55 AM

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View PostFendalton, on 15 August 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Hit rate is the true measurement of skill.

PR would be fairly decent if they removed hit rate.


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Cronk #100 Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:18 AM

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View Posttimwahoo, on 15 August 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

3 games in a row. That is pretty funny. Its also funny when lighter tanks bitch in chat about being hit with premium ammo when pretty clearly it was pre-loaded for a stronger target but the light tank happened to show its face first. What do you expect the enemy to do, a 10sec+ reload just to avoid the shame of firing sprem at a light tank? Moron pubbies everywhere.

 

Exactly.

 

Had some moron in a KV-3 calling me rich kid for half the game after I set him on fire with 13 90 APCR that was intended for a VK 4502. I then used the last two shots in the clip on a drive by of an ISU-152 that was holding up some of the pubbies on my team.  ISU then decided to jump on the ignorance bandwagon by calling me a noob for "needing gold ammo on the rear of an ISU". Like I'm gonna spend 40 seconds reloading an AP clip, I didn't "need" it, it's just what I happened to have loaded at that time.

 

I'm not gonna waste time loading a normal AP round just because some paper armor tank appeared in front of me. You're gonna get whatever ammo happens to be loaded at that point in time, after that there's probably going to be an AP round queued up behind it.


Edited by Cronk, 15 August 2014 - 09:21 AM.

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