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Initial impressions of the T-34-85M

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_Storm #41 Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:33 PM

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I've only seen tier 8s once (or maybe twice) so far, although too early to tell if just lucktm or WG has tweaked the mm weight so it doesn't see tier 8 so often.

Steeltrap #42 Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:33 PM

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View PostSnoopDongyDong, on 17 December 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

After playing it for an extended period of time, how often would you say it sees tier 8?

 

 

The only way you will get an answer that is of any value is if they keep a record of the battles they got into over 50+ battles. Time of day with number of players online would help, too.

 

'Impressions' are decidedly useless.


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Frooty_Ninja #43 Posted 17 December 2014 - 09:41 PM

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View PostSteeltrap, on 17 December 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

 

The only way you will get an answer that is of any value is if they keep a record of the battles they got into over 50+ battles. Time of day with number of players online would help, too.

 

'Impressions' are decidedly useless.

 

I do trust Storm's impressions though.  I also trust his sister, Snow's, impressions.

 

He always gives me accurate and good advice.  

 


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Smokeyr67 #44 Posted 18 December 2014 - 03:35 AM

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I'm doing ok in the 34-85-M (66% w/r after 29 battles) but for some reason I tend to run in front of hidden big [edited] TD's who relish one shotting me from full health - I guess I have to review my playstyle:)

 

Still, it's a far far better tank to grind my Soviet medium crew than the Matilda, and as an added bonus I now get 3 daily doubles (t-34, Matilda and t-44)



ikitteh2k13 #45 Posted 18 December 2014 - 07:12 AM

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Love this tank. Why was not this tank already in premium store ? Why did people have to endure the horrific Matilda IV when they had this amazing fun medium trainer ?

Rantic #46 Posted 18 December 2014 - 09:16 AM

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View PostSnoopDongyDong, on 17 December 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

After playing it for an extended period of time, how often would you say it sees tier 8?

 

 

Not sure why MM is such a big deal for some players.

I mean, we endure +3 MM with light tanks, we still pick LTs and enjoy them.

We get +2 MM with regular non-premium tanks, and we enjoy the games.

So what we get +2 MM with this tank -- it's still fun to play. :)

 

Just means a different playstyle is required, that's all. 

 

It's called tactics. 


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Frooty_Ninja #47 Posted 18 December 2014 - 11:04 AM

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View PostRantic, on 18 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

 

Not sure why MM is such a big deal for some players.

 

It's called tactics. 

 

And how's that working out for you?

 

MM is a big deal when a tank is made weaker than it's counterparts.  Or when it is less equipped (or plain unable) to deal with the strongest tanks it can potentially face in that mm.


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Rantic #48 Posted 18 December 2014 - 12:03 PM

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View PostSnoopDongyDong, on 18 December 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

 

And how's that working out for you?

 

MM is a big deal when a tank is made weaker than it's counterparts.  Or when it is less equipped (or plain unable) to deal with the strongest tanks it can potentially face in that mm.

 

Just like any other +2MM game, win some lose some. :)

 

imho, a tank is "weaker" is subjective; for the t34-85m in particular, the armor is fun, even if the gun isn't top notch. Player skill will ultimately make the difference. If you're good enough to catch a T8 in the back, you don't need a big gun to do dmg there. For the few tanks that you just can't handle from any angle, go elsewhere on the map. If you're a t6 on a t8 match, surely there will be other t6 tanks for you to pick on. :)

 

eg. if i find myself in +2MM situation where i'm bottom tier, hide in a bush somewhere, do some spotting (i run binos just for this scenario), and wait for the higher tier tanks to commit themselves, then use the reasonable pace of the t34-85m (it's not fast, but still has ok MT speed) to find angles on the HTs/MTs. Most maps generally allow for this type of move.

 

I'm just a noob with 1k games, that's what i do. I'm sure better players have better suggestions.

 

Point is, doesn't make the tank bad just because of +2MM. Good play will be good play, regardless of tank.


Edited by Rantic, 18 December 2014 - 12:07 PM.

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_Storm #49 Posted 18 December 2014 - 03:53 PM

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The point he's making is good play isn't always (and very often isn't) enough when bottom tier, lights especially suffer from this.

 

A tank being "weaker" is objective, not subjective, good players will always do better than bad players, but that doesn't change the fundamental "strength" of the tonk.



Rantic #50 Posted 18 December 2014 - 04:00 PM

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View PostStormtroop3r, on 18 December 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

A tank being "weaker" is objective, not subjective, good players will always do better than bad players, but that doesn't change the fundamental "strength" of the tonk.

 

Does that mean that a good player in a "bad" tank will lose more often than he wins? Perhaps, if all other things remain equal e.g. quality of opposition team, the tanks that they are driving etc.

 

I'd like to think that a good player in any tank will win more than they lose because all other things rarely stay the same; the only constant is the quality of the player.

 

Vice versa also true. A bad player in a good tank will likely lose more than they win as well.


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_Storm #51 Posted 18 December 2014 - 04:10 PM

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No, it means a good player in a bad tonk will lose often than he does in a good tonk. Look at my Panther II and E-50 stats if you want an example. 

Steeltrap #52 Posted 18 December 2014 - 05:41 PM

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The reason I raised it at all is because paying for a premmy tank is different from a normal tank unless you win loads of gold from CW or wherever.

 

In that case it also helps to assess it in terms of other premium tanks.

 

I happen to believe a Lowe really ought not get tier 10 battles, for example, because the things that matter when a tier 8 in tier 10 are things the Lowe generally doesn't have. I think a Type 59 belongs at tier 10 every bit as much as a Lowe, but the reversed that after all the butthurt from people who played it from all the way back when its preferential MM and armour made it OP. Pretty funny.

 

And the Panther 88 won't get pref MM. So that's a somewhat nerfed Panther II with the same MM. A Type 59 is a somewhat nerfed/somewhat improved armour T-44 and it DOES get pref MM because reasons.

 

Then you have the SU-122-44 and E-25 v Panther Warcrimes. LOL, yeah, right.

 

So IMO the MM is relevant if only because not all premmy tanks get the same MM. To my mind there are anomalies in WG's approach when it comes to that issue. What a surprise.


Edited by Steeltrap, 18 December 2014 - 05:42 PM.

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Frooty_Ninja #53 Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:32 PM

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View PostSteeltrap, on 18 December 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

The reason I raised it at all is because paying for a premmy tank is different from a normal tank unless you win loads of gold from CW or wherever.

 

In that case it also helps to assess it in terms of other premium tanks.

 

I happen to believe a Lowe really ought not get tier 10 battles, for example, because the things that matter when a tier 8 in tier 10 are things the Lowe generally doesn't have. I think a Type 59 belongs at tier 10 every bit as much as a Lowe, but the reversed that after all the butthurt from people who played it from all the way back when its preferential MM and armour made it OP. Pretty funny.

 

And the Panther 88 won't get pref MM. So that's a somewhat nerfed Panther II with the same MM. A Type 59 is a somewhat nerfed/somewhat improved armour T-44 and it DOES get pref MM because reasons.

 

Then you have the SU-122-44 and E-25 v Panther Warcrimes. LOL, yeah, right.

 

So IMO the MM is relevant if only because not all premmy tanks get the same MM. To my mind there are anomalies in WG's approach when it comes to that issue. What a surprise.

 

The thing with a Type 59 in tier 10 battles is it is next to impossible for it to hurt some of the heavy tanks.  Try dealing with an E100 in a Type and it's a hard time.

 

tbh it seems as if gun penetration seems to determine in most cases whether or not a premium gets pref MM.  For some reason that didn't apply to the FCM when it came out, which raised my hopes that the Lowe might get that treatment (coz tis a giant turd).


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Steeltrap #54 Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:06 PM

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View PostSnoopDongyDong, on 18 December 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

 

The thing with a Type 59 in tier 10 battles is it is next to impossible for it to hurt some of the heavy tanks.  Try dealing with an E100 in a Type and it's a hard time.

 

Long 88mm (Panther II, presumably on the Panther 88) has 237mm pen with sprem ammo, and 240 alpha.

 

Type 59's 100mm has 241mm with sprem ammo and 250 alpha.

 

Given the Panther II has a RoF of 8.22 with the long 88, I imagine the Panther 88 will be somewhat lower.

 

It will need to be at least 7.19 to have the same DPM as the Type.

 

Type 59 gets pref MM. Panther 88 will not.

 

Anyone want to explain that to me?

 

 


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_Storm #55 Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:15 PM

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Russian bias.

Steeltrap #56 Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:24 PM

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View PostStormtroop3r, on 19 December 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

Russian bias.

 

In fact I think it's because the WG balance team is inept and generally fail to look at balance issues beyond "that vehicle has an acceptable win rate".

 

Thus they appear not to consider vehicles that are older.

 

Frankly they ought to do meaningful reviews at least annually or whenever a comparable vehicle is introduced or whenever a significant change is made to the game (sprem for CR, upcoming sigma changes for accuracy, etc).

 

But for me at least I cannot see a single, legitimate reason why the Panther 88 should see tier 10s while the Type 59 does not based on what we've been told to date. Same goes for the Lowe, frankly.


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Leclerc1945 #57 Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:31 PM

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View PostStormtroop3r, on 18 December 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Russian bias.

 

chinese bias

http://wotreplays.com/uploader/Leclerc1945/id/363437 

 


Frooty_Ninja #58 Posted 19 December 2014 - 01:41 AM

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View PostSteeltrap, on 18 December 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

 

Long 88mm (Panther II, presumably on the Panther 88) has 237mm pen with sprem ammo, and 240 alpha.

 

Type 59's 100mm has 241mm with sprem ammo and 250 alpha.

 

Given the Panther II has a RoF of 8.22 with the long 88, I imagine the Panther 88 will be somewhat lower.

 

It will need to be at least 7.19 to have the same DPM as the Type.

 

Type 59 gets pref MM. Panther 88 will not.

 

Anyone want to explain that to me?

 

 

 

The Panther II got screwed on its prem round.

 

Plus it is notoriously shit.

 

Now compare the Type to the T-44, Pershing, T69, STA or one of the better T8 meds.

 

Many of the older tanks need a buff too, there'd be more than a handful.

 

 

edit- another point.  whilst the point about the Type being comparable to the Panther II i.e. a bottom of the pack T8 med re: firepower holds some merit, there is one major point for consideration.  The Type (or any prem) is paid for with real money.  Pref MM sells tanks.  Why pay for a crap version of something that you could grind for free?  Who would buy the IS-6 when you can grind an IS-3, if it had normal MM>?  I know I wouldn't have.

 

Edit 2- I'd also say they balance around the standard round.


Edited by SnoopDongyDong, 19 December 2014 - 02:03 AM.

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Frooty_Ninja #59 Posted 19 December 2014 - 01:43 AM

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View PostSteeltrap, on 18 December 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

Thus they appear not to consider vehicles that are older.

 

Yep.

 

That's a big one.

 

Some vehicles do seem to hold up better than others i.e. Pershing vs. Panther II, E100 vs Maus.  But there's definitely an element of power creep in the game.  Although to be fair some of the newer tanks are pretty terrible too.

 

 


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Steeltrap #60 Posted 19 December 2014 - 02:22 PM

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I think we're pretty much in agreement.

 

The Type (or any prem) is paid for with real money.  Pref MM sells tanks.  Why pay for a crap version of something that you could grind for free?  Who would buy the IS-6 when you can grind an IS-3, if it had normal MM>?  I know I wouldn't have.

 

EXACTLY the point I was making. Panther 88 doesn't get pref MM. Neither does this T-34-85M. So why would we buy it? That's pretty much what I've been saying all along, lol.

 

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Edited by Steeltrap, 19 December 2014 - 02:24 PM.

So long, and thanks for all the fish






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