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We've gone through WR, then WN7, WN8, and finally...


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Haku #1 Posted 01 August 2015 - 09:04 AM

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...it feels like I've come full circle and started looking at WR again to see a person's skill. When you've advanced this far into the game, you start seeing the basics again to truly discern a player for recruitment.

 

I realised it a long time ago, but it had not been the forefront of my mind until when I wrote the Raumdeuter post in the 13 90 guide.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Edit: somewhere in that WR -> WN7 -> ... flow line should be a metric about damage per game.


Edited by Haku, 01 August 2015 - 09:08 AM.

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Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #2 Posted 01 August 2015 - 09:19 AM

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Just had a green stats team defeated by orange... because the green stats were indeed individually playing worse than orange.

 

Posting during the wait between games...

 

Lately stats have been way inaccurate at reflecting actual in-game performance. This in itself can be a good thing and a bad thing, but either way it makes prediction no longer accurate. I suspect a large number of players have either sold their accounts or are sharing with others who just joined.

Can be a good thing - because it shows the upper tier skill level is improving relative to the lower tiers. The bigger the meta skill difference, the more the statpadders will suck at the higher tiers with their green-blue global average stats.


Edited by Bluefunk, 01 August 2015 - 09:27 AM.

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if ( battle_type = CW | RB | SH ) {

mod_folder.disable

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Jurrunio #3 Posted 01 August 2015 - 10:14 AM

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The problem of the current player rating has 4 problems:

 

1. Damage done on lower tier tanks are a lot lower than high tier ones. Damage done per match is therefore not a good skill indicator unless tier distribution of tanks that player owns are taken into account.

 

2. The stats counts since the account was created, and does not reset. This means the info gets outdated. For example, my first 4k games are garbage, as I made it to only tier 4. I spent a whole year not playing World of Tanks, then used another 4k games to get tier 6 & 7. My WR is only 44% before I stop playing, and 52% after that. This does impact my shown stats (WN8).

 

3. HR are taken into account in the calculation of player rating. This is a problem for arty player as their shells hit rate is at 75% or lower even if fully aimed shots are made every time. For tanks, espically German ones, have a HR of 90% or more.

 

4. Damage blocked by armour are not counted in the ratings. If someone plays KV-5 only, which has a bad gun and good armour, his rating will be lower than other players even if he contributed to the team just as much.

 

If these are corrected, then maybe WN9 will come. However, nothing is perfect, and I can say that new player ratings will keep on coming, until World of Tanks dies.


How can armor in the game be stronger?

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Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #4 Posted 01 August 2015 - 10:52 AM

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Getting back to winrate is only natural with how things are progressing...

 

We had Efficiency in the first place because winrate was being padded with Hellcats and platoons, so we needed a metric that looks at individual performance. Then when people realized Efficiency could be padded by cap points, so WN was adopted. Then people started camping and killstealing, so WN8 came and reduced the weighting of kills. Then people started sniping.

 

Whichever metric chosen, given enough time and spreading of knowledge, people will pad it knowingly or unknowingly. (Or blatantly but bluffing himself.) If no single number can be trusted, then we trust the one that measures what ultimately matters i.e. winrate. It may not be accurate, but we bank on when it is. Because if we bank on for example damage, even if it's not padded it does not necessarily translate into a win.

 

Besides, more and more people are learning how to judge paddedness via vehicle statistics and medals, so winrate becomes more useable.

 

 


How to solve all problems once and for all with just 3 lines of code:

 

if ( battle_type = CW | RB | SH ) {

mod_folder.disable

}


Nekrosmas #5 Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:04 PM

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WR only Truely matters after ~5000 Battles.

 

It is important, but on alone it isn't really all that relevant as You have to look at other stuff as well (WN8, DMG, Cap/Base Def point etc).

 

However, do take note that Solo players getting 51%+ WR is already pretty good - as SEA..... Well you know what I mean.

 

 


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mttspiii #6 Posted 01 August 2015 - 03:27 PM

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There's WN9, which is not famous enough to be knowingly stat-padded yet.

 

Though randoms is randoms. Greens see green teammates, think "other green guy should carry so I'd yolo and finally have fun", and lose to orange team.


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J_Will97 #7 Posted 01 August 2015 - 03:53 PM

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Xvm should display recent WN8 and overall WR instead.. See how many purples have light blue recent....

XiNuAiLe #8 Posted 01 August 2015 - 03:58 PM

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View PostJ_Will97, on 01 August 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Xvm should display recent WN8 and overall WR instead.. See how many purples have light blue recent....

 

Purple becoming bad or the game become harder ? 

 


mttspiii #9 Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:24 PM

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Their favorite statpad tanks have been nerfed methinks (TDs, Hellcats, KV-1S)....

 

Except for the dome-turret tanks of course. Long live T-54! Long live T-62A! Long live stock AMX 40!


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mttspiii #10 Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:26 PM

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Doublepost

 

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Edited by mttspiii, 01 August 2015 - 04:27 PM.

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Quasinerdo #11 Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:30 PM

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I like having a metric to judge if I am improving however have to understand the details of it to know if the criteria for improving are relevant to me in the context of "improvement". Clans now recruiting based on stats is an element of this discussion as what constitutes good? At a certain point players with high levels across all metrics are easily identified as good. But if you play selective vehicles and adopt a specific style to gain max statistical benefit - at the continued expense of your team then I tend to think you are not a good player to have (even if you "carry" at the end and clean up because you are effectively still a selfish P$#% and not a team player).

 

There are some exceptional individual tankers who are also awful in team play. Their stats do not represent their actual value in a large group battle (though they may represent potential I guess).


 

I have played mostly HT and TD with a Segway into the german and now Russian MT lines. I am taking a massive hit to may game stats playing French Med's as the auto loader and different game dynamics with the French MT's mean I need to adapt on a number of fronts how I play c.f what I know. So.... my stats tank on these vehicles and overall for a period of time. Am I no longer as good as I was or les desirable to have in a match?


 

I guess it's a useful guide, can assist in roughly estimating how you can rely on a team mate in a pub, and perhaps set some personal goals but beyond that it's too easy to manipulate and dismisses too many variables that are key to a win or other tanks achieving higher yields (eg damage blocked as was mentioned earlier).



 

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Haku #12 Posted 01 August 2015 - 05:34 PM

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View PostQuasinerdo, on 01 August 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

There are some exceptional individual tankers who are also awful in team play.

 

I can't think of any who are good individually, but awful in team play. This is not Call of Duty. This game, at its base, is a team game (no matter how many times, or how hard, the naysayers deny it). To do well in this game, you have to be a team player (within reason, of course). Players who are lousy in team play, are oftentimes lousy in individual play too.

 

I'm not denying the usefulness of performance metrics. They are a good filter for players whom you do want in your clan. It is, of course, not infallible (some of my best platoon mates, the ones with which I have the most synergy with, are not unicums, and yet with them I feel like I can go into any battle and do anything and I'd still win), but when you take a fine-toothed comb to the salient details, I realised a while back that damage is not inherently what wins games, but movement and decisiveness. The ability to see the path to victory and take it, even if it means sneak-capping (when you do little to no damage), for instance, is what I look for in any potential recruit (in DPS now).

 

Yes, win rate can be padded, either by platoons or known stat-padding tanks, but with the advent of statistics in World of Tanks, anyone can see what tanks you played, and reassess your stats without the influence of those stat-padding tanks (and thus give you a truer interpretation of your stats). As for platoons, after several thousand battles, there must be a reason why people like to platoon with you continuously, isn't there? Humourous rages at people/tanks/clans/RNG moments can only get you soooooo far.

 

Any clot can do damage. But winning...that's another matter. Sometimes the two are inseparable (as is the case most of the time in heavy tanks), but there are more ways to victory than people seem to realise.


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mttspiii #13 Posted 01 August 2015 - 05:55 PM

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View PostHaku, on 01 August 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

 

I can't think of any who are good individually, but awful in team play. This is not Call of Duty. This game, at its base, is a team game (no matter how many times, or how hard, the naysayers deny it). To do well in this game, you have to be a team player (within reason, of course). Players who are lousy in team play, are oftentimes lousy in individual play too.

 

 

I'd like to jump in the thread, but "individual play" and "team play" are vague terms. What makes "individual play"? Does situational awareness count as team or individual play? Minimap awareness? Noting where your teammates are? Or is dealing damage the only part of individual play?

 

Or maybe it doesn't really matter, since (in randoms at least) both are too intertwined. But then, that wouldn't explain fully having yellow / green WN8 while having sub-48% WR.


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KuroYukiOuji #14 Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:28 PM

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View Postalexanderleung, on 01 August 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The problem of the current player rating has 4 problems:

 

1. Damage done on lower tier tanks are a lot lower than high tier ones. Damage done per match is therefore not a good skill indicator unless tier distribution of tanks that player owns are taken into account.

 

2. The stats counts since the account was created, and does not reset. This means the info gets outdated. For example, my first 4k games are garbage, as I made it to only tier 4. I spent a whole year not playing World of Tanks, then used another 4k games to get tier 6 & 7. My WR is only 44% before I stop playing, and 52% after that. This does impact my shown stats (WN8).

 

3. HR are taken into account in the calculation of player rating. This is a problem for arty player as their shells hit rate is at 75% or lower even if fully aimed shots are made every time. For tanks, espically German ones, have a HR of 90% or more.

 

4. Damage blocked by armour are not counted in the ratings. If someone plays KV-5 only, which has a bad gun and good armour, his rating will be lower than other players even if he contributed to the team just as much.

 

If these are corrected, then maybe WN9 will come. However, nothing is perfect, and I can say that new player ratings will keep on coming, until World of Tanks dies.

 

What exactly are you refering to as the 'current rating'?

Haku #15 Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:37 PM

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View Postmttspiii, on 01 August 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

I'd like to jump in the thread, but "individual play" and "team play" are vague terms. What makes "individual play"? Does situational awareness count as team or individual play? Minimap awareness? Noting where your teammates are? Or is dealing damage the only part of individual play?

 

Or maybe it doesn't really matter, since (in randoms at least) both are too intertwined. But then, that wouldn't explain fully having yellow / green WN8 while having sub-48% WR.

 

Those are grey areas. Both are intertwined (in my opinion). While those skills are up to the ability of the player, they help the team as a whole too. The ability to pop up at the right place at the right time is invaluable.

 

Something that I would consider to be truly individualistic play, not just dealing damage, is small-scale brawling, peek-a-boos, and conserving HP (more often than not, to the detriment of your teammates).


Edited by Haku, 01 August 2015 - 06:39 PM.

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Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #16 Posted 01 August 2015 - 09:04 PM

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I have nearly zero experience with platooned wolfpacking.

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if ( battle_type = CW | RB | SH ) {

mod_folder.disable

}


Nimish_ #17 Posted 02 August 2015 - 06:41 AM

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View PostHaku, on 01 August 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

 

I can't think of any who are good individually, but awful in team play. This is not Call of Duty. This game, at its base, is a team game (no matter how many times, or how hard, the naysayers deny it). To do well in this game, you have to be a team player (within reason, of course). Players who are lousy in team play, are oftentimes lousy in individual play too.

 

I'm not denying the usefulness of performance metrics. They are a good filter for players whom you do want in your clan. It is, of course, not infallible (some of my best platoon mates, the ones with which I have the most synergy with, are not unicums, and yet with them I feel like I can go into any battle and do anything and I'd still win), but when you take a fine-toothed comb to the salient details, I realised a while back that damage is not inherently what wins games, but movement and decisiveness. The ability to see the path to victory and take it, even if it means sneak-capping (when you do little to no damage), for instance, is what I look for in any potential recruit (in DPS now).

 

Yes, win rate can be padded, either by platoons or known stat-padding tanks, but with the advent of statistics in World of Tanks, anyone can see what tanks you played, and reassess your stats without the influence of those stat-padding tanks (and thus give you a truer interpretation of your stats). As for platoons, after several thousand battles, there must be a reason why people like to platoon with you continuously, isn't there? Humourous rages at people/tanks/clans/RNG moments can only get you soooooo far.

 

Any clot can do damage. But winning...that's another matter. Sometimes the two are inseparable (as is the case most of the time in heavy tanks), but there are more ways to victory than people seem to realise.

 

Are you saying purples don't use any tactics that are counterproductive to team play?

 

View PostQuasinerdo, on 01 August 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

There are some exceptional individual tankers who are also awful in team play. Their stats do not represent their actual value in a large group battle (though they may represent potential I guess).

 

I have similar thoughts recently and in that case the true good players are the ones who win tourneys. If this is a team game then ideally everyone should form teams and play ranked battles and evaluate team performance and then player performance... that's unlikely to happen due to so many reasons.

 

The statistics considered are personal while the gameplay is team based...

 


Edited by Nimish_, 02 August 2015 - 06:52 AM.

 

Spoiler

 


Splattimus #18 Posted 02 August 2015 - 08:53 AM

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The problem with statistics...

 

As soon as they become important, clods pad them.

 

You need a large sample for it to be accurate, but people can change dramatically and make the previous data irrelevant.

 

And the 44% WR player can have a massive awesome game just as the 70% WR can have a absolute poo shameful one.

 

They act as a guide. A rough average of what the player historically is like. You can't say "70% player, we win", just as you can't say "44% player, he WILL be still at spawn AFK". The 70% player might be trying something new, and the 44% player might have gotten a better computer. So at best:-

44% most probably will be AFK at spawn.

70% most probably will be pwning us all from the best locations possible.

And anyone in between becomes "Likely be doing little, or going pretty well"...

 

Because lately, I've been watching the Green and Purple teams doing stupid crap, while the Orange and Red ones seem to be in the right place, at the right time...


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Haku #19 Posted 02 August 2015 - 09:07 AM

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View PostNimish_, on 02 August 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Are you saying purples don't use any tactics that are counterproductive to team play?

 

Not using any tactics that are counterproductive to team play? I think you mean "don't use any tactics that are productive to team play".

 

I did not say "all purples" (as per what you are implying). While that is not the case, a lot of purple players out there (more than you think) do do that. Refusal to share HP, damage, kills even, the insistence that anyone except themselves goes first into the breach. Self-preservation is on the forefront of their minds. This gets carried over into the final end-game content (Clan Wars, tournaments) more often than not. There are unicums who play according to what matters in WNx, instead of whether the team wins or not, and it shows.

 

You thought this was a problem for greens and blues? It is a problem as well for purples.

 

While I'm sure that they have found a niche for themselves in being able to grind out games that correspond to being a unicum more often than not (and thus get recognised by top clans, players, etc.) I don't consider them true unicums. In many ways, greens and blues who have the right mentality in World of Tanks are more valuable than purples who are only looking out for #1.


Edited by Haku, 02 August 2015 - 09:09 AM.

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Politx_killer #20 Posted 02 August 2015 - 09:19 AM

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Damage alone does not win games, its about when and where it is done that matters the most.

 

Any metric will be flawed, the only way to really judge a players skill is to actually play with them and watch their thought process unfold during a battle.

 

 

As my w/r goes up, my WN8 goes down. The majority of this can be contributed to platooning more then I usually do. (which is still less then most) But I do believe personally that I am doing damage in the right places at the right time more often leading to more wins. I am now actually utilising my team mates more efficiently, not only as meat shields but as actual contributors to the teams chances of winning. Of course the majority of games require carrying and possibly doing x2/3 my hp.


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