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Tank Selection-EL gaming's greatest blunder?

Grand Finals WGL EL gaming Fkquan TCSG Tank Selection 7/68 analysis team battles

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baby33334 #1 Posted 11 April 2016 - 12:33 AM

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Hello everyone! I am baby33334. I used to be the caller for The Coalition - Singapore, or TCSG, from years 2013-2015. Along the way, I’ve played my fair share of tournaments in the past. Today, I want to discuss what happened over the Wargaming League Grand Finals in Poland that just happened this weekend. If you haven't heard of the WGL finals, look no further; the results of the whole tournament are available here. This article will only touch on EL Gaming’s matches, and perhaps attempt to make sense as to how and why EL Gaming lost so decisively and disastrously after a sterling performance to grab second place at the same tournament last year.

 

To start, I created two spreadsheets (RIP weekends) to show each tank selected by EL Gaming and their opponents. This includes who played what tank as well as the damage figures for each player and each tank. Do note that some games, specifically the first and sixth sets for EL Gaming vs NSS were not shown on stream and as a result there is no available data for those sets.

 

EL gaming vs NSS

EL gaming vs Yato

 

EL Gaming vs NSS

1.Too many autoloaders by EL Gaming.

In this best-of-nine series, we see major differences in tank selection for both teams. NSS preferred single-shot tanks, be it heavies or mediums. By contrast, EL Gaming brought at least 3-4 auto-loaders for every match. While that might not seem like much in a 15-man team such as Clan Wars or even random battles, 3-4 tanks in a team of seven is equal to or more than half of their team's Tier 10s. Interestingly, the autoloaders from EL gaming showed that they were unable to deal damage to have significant impact on the game,conventional wisdom suggests that autoloaders having much higher firepower than single-shot tanks;however, in all 4 games which the damage statistics were shown, the breech loading heavies from EL gaming did the most damage. An excellent article by my teammate, Haku, highlighted the differences in playstyle and handling of auto-loaders and single-shot tanks. To save ourselves some time, the TL;DR version in differences is that auto-loaders are great, but only when you can control the engagement, for example when a TVP 50/51 unloads its drum in 4.5 seconds and escapes safely. If you are unable to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and dictate the tempo, auto-loaders end up becoming a burden as you are effectively down a tank while it is reloading. Furthermore, careless play or bad RNG or both can strike at the most inopportune times, leaving a target just one shot away from being destroyed, unable to finish them off while the auto-loader drum is reloading, allowing the target to survive and deal damage towards your own team.

 

EL Gaming brought tanks such as the TVP 50/51 and Bat-Chat 25t (click the tanks for the role I am talking about or to learn more about them) for almost every game, intending to have them serve as flankers and to mop up any stragglers, which, to be fair the tanks are great at simply did not work with the exception of Set 2 where Newman did 3.5k damage, but even in that game the breech loading 113 played by black did more damage than the batchat consequently is the only set EL gaming won against NSS.

 

2.EL Gaming consistently brought lighter line ups than NSS did.

In all 6 sets that were played, EL's tanks simply did not have the staying power to fight heavy tanks or even single-shot mediums such as Object 140 and STB-1 (both of which have excellent hull-down characteristics). When it came to autoloaders, NSS brought out bigger, badder and scarier guns like the Waffentrager E100 and the AMX 50B which have more hit points than EL's TVPs and Bat-Chats. Personally, this is simply the difference in the meta between the Asia/APAC region and CIS region; the commentators, suggested that on city maps, like Ghost Town, two Tier 9 heavy tanks is better than one Tier 10 medium and one Tier 8 light tank. This led to the unfavourable engagements for EL Gaming and playing on the back-foot whenever NSS started to push.

 

3.Wrong use of artillery piece by EL Gaming.

EL Gaming used a Lorraine 155 51 self-propelled gun in 2 separate sets. Its main strength is that it has a (relatively) short aim time, reload speed, high accuracy and it's high top speed. However, the games in which EL Gaming used the artillery was either ineffective due to its lower alpha (in comparison to M40/43) or did not have the correct angles and was unable to reposition to get better shots. This, coupled with their inability to control the tempo, led to EL gaming to be effectively down a tank.*

*This is more of a minor point, as I think that the impact between the differences in artillery being used would have ultimately been inconsequential considering the difference in tank line up.

 

4.Map Selection.

EL Gaming are traditionally known for being very strong on open maps such as Prokhorovka, Murovanka and Cliff. At the same time, they are known for struggling to play on closed maps like Himmelsdorf, Ruinberg and Ghost Town. With the introduction of 7/68 format, the rules of map selection have changed yet again. This time maps are played once on attack, once on defence. This meant that EL Gaming were forced to play more unfavourable maps, but were unable to adapt to this in time. EL Gaming lost 4 games on maps where they were not good on (Mines and Ghost Town). Had they been stronger on these maps, the outcome could have been different.

 

EL Gaming vs Yato Gaming

If you are still reading this article, it means that you’ve probably expected some sort of detailed analysis up to this point. Unfortunately, EL Gaming’s match against Yato Gaming was so mind-boggling that I can summarise the match using a meme:

Spoiler
 

 

 

On a more serious note, EL Gaming is a more experienced and are arguably a better team than Yato. In addition to that, EL Gaming are more familiar with Yato Gaming being from the same region and having fought in 2014 and won 5:0 .The only logical conclusion that I could come up with to explain the 1:5 defeat was that EL Gaming was forced to play back-to-back matches (no thanks to the luck of the draw). As a result, they had around about 15 minutes to regroup after being defeated by NSS. While they do have massive experience playing at live events such as the APAC Finals for 3 seasons, Pacific Rumble, and last year’s Grand Final, each time they had a “break” because their opponents had a match in-between. This time, they had no time to recollect their thoughts and analyze what went wrong in the previous match so as to not repeat the same mistakes. Meanwhile their opponent were able to observe EL Gaming and make notes of every mistake and every movement that they made, waiting to exploit it against EL Gaming in the later series.



 

Conclusion

Sun Tzu once said that "Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." While EL Gaming has matured a lot in terms of their tactical play compared to their performance last year, playing with a slower tempo. EL Gaming’s detractors like to would point out that EL Gaming were simply outclassed by NSS. In my opinion, however, it is not as cut-and-dry. It is important to consider that tank selection also plays a part when it comes to winning a tournament series. The abysmal tank choices by EL Gaming certainly did not help them against NSS. I would say that EL Gaming has to improve their sense to have a better read of what kinds of tanks to bring and when to bring them in the future in order to defeat international teams like NSS and Na’Vi. The also showcased mental fragility when they routed so completely against Yato in a match where they were expected to win.

 

Despite the setbacks this season, I would not underestimate EL Gaming; in the past they frequently lost to Korean rivals ARETE (now renamed GOLD BASS) but showed resilience and were able to beat them in the final to clinch the first title for WGL-APAC, emphatically beating them 7-1. I believe that EL Gaming will take this humiliating performance to heart and learn from it, hopefully turning them to an even better team as they fight for the chance to represent Asia/APAC once again next season.


Edit: Here is a video made by my teammate Roby, he goes through the specifics of what went wrong while in this article I went through it in a general sense. I would highly recommend that you check it out.


 

 

 


Edited by baby33334, 11 April 2016 - 05:48 PM.


Haku #2 Posted 11 April 2016 - 12:40 AM

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_KayGeraint_ #3 Posted 11 April 2016 - 04:27 AM

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Watching EL Gaming get reduced to nothing by not just NSS, one of the best teams, but also Yato, which is way worse than EL gaming was pretty confusing. I've even heard rumours that they willingly lost so they can get more money, simply because they brought such weird line ups and lost in such a bad way, not just to NSS, but to Yato.

 

And on another hand, that loss to NaVi by HellRaisers, because new physics :trollface: New physics too op for Applew0w :^))))


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_Bohan #4 Posted 11 April 2016 - 08:57 AM

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It seemed like EL knew that their opponents will study their tactics this time around, so tried to use some newer, untested strats. Which blew up in their face fairly dramatically. Like that Ghost Town game, waffles vs batchats is pretty much gg, especially considering the skill level of NSS. Elong also had A LOT of individual errors, there were so many times when an ELONG player threw their tank away for nothing. I think this is probably because of the level of competition they usually face, as they can get away with overaggression and overextension in the ASIA Gold league due to the much weaker teams compared to the other leagues.

 

Personally I would have liked seeing SN at the grand finals. They have their own strats/plays and better individual skill than ELONG.



Fendalton #5 Posted 11 April 2016 - 09:01 AM

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Excellent article. 

baby33334 #6 Posted 11 April 2016 - 09:22 AM

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View PostFendalton, on 11 April 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

Excellent article. 

 

Thanks =D hope you liked it 

baby33334 #7 Posted 11 April 2016 - 09:24 AM

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View PostBohan, on 11 April 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

It seemed like EL knew that their opponents will study their tactics this time around, so tried to use some newer, untested strats. Which blew up in their face fairly dramatically. Like that Ghost Town game, waffles vs batchats is pretty much gg, especially considering the skill level of NSS. Elong also had A LOT of individual errors, there were so many times when an ELONG player threw their tank away for nothing. I think this is probably because of the level of competition they usually face, as they can get away with overaggression and overextension in the ASIA Gold league due to the much weaker teams compared to the other leagues.

 

Personally I would have liked seeing SN at the grand finals. They have their own strats/plays and better individual skill than ELONG.

 

my teammate Roby will be covering the tactical analysis more, we sort of coordinated where I would go over the strategy of EL GAMING rather than look at it from a tactical standpoint of where and how they messed up.

MeisterP #8 Posted 11 April 2016 - 10:40 AM

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[whole bunch of redacted drivel]

 

Well, very likely maybe not, but after the YTG rounds I felt like smashing a table and blaming anything that would explain what I was seeing.


Edited by MeisterP, 11 April 2016 - 10:55 AM.

NYAA Tank Idol Project 5th LiVE confirmed!!


exil #9 Posted 11 April 2016 - 11:10 AM

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It seemed like EL just choked to be honest. There were so many mistakes in decision-making and positioning in the NSS match it made me cringe. Not to mention they also made some really bad individual mistakes as well, especially on Mines.

 

The whole thing was really strange considering they have a wealth of offline event experience. They had a training camp before the event so it's unlikely they were under-prepared. Maybe they just didn't have enough faith in their normal standard play against CIS teams. It was a completely different EL we saw at the Grand Finals, and there was none of the clinical play we usually expect from them.


Edited by exil, 11 April 2016 - 11:25 AM.


crazib #10 Posted 11 April 2016 - 12:07 PM

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View Post_xXx_Heman_o7o7o7_xXx_, on 10 April 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

Watching EL Gaming get reduced to nothing by not just NSS, one of the best teams, but also Yato, which is way worse than EL gaming was pretty confusing. I've even heard rumours that they willingly lost so they can get more money, simply because they brought such weird line ups and lost in such a bad way, not just to NSS, but to Yato.

 

And on another hand, that loss to NaVi by HellRaisers, because new physics :trollface: New physics too op for Applew0w :^))))

 

well, we can also see the mental stress for NAVI and hellraisers during the grand finals, they have played for the whole night. And yes their performance during the opening matches were good, but later on they made alot of rookie mistakes. For eg throwing away fv215b in ghost town and the infamous 'applewow rock'. Majority of the viewers and i would not have know about that 'applewow rock' until i saw the grand finals. Still i think NAVI escaped with a 2v1, because of LUCK™  as we can see here in Haku's latest article http://forum.worldof...t-so-important/

 

Oh mind you they are not your average pubbies, take for e.g NAVI's best player Straik is in the top 10 wn8 rating of the RU server with 5.3k wn8 rating and 75% win rate with 43k games clocked. and most of the players in NAVI and hellraisers have 4k wn8 rating! But why they still make rookie mistakes, they are still human, they were exhausted mentally and physically along the 2 days of playing. Not to mention that Hellraisers were under the pressure to defend their 1st place title from 2015, and NAVI were pressured because they were the fan favorites and had expectations of winning 1st place which they did. So any other ordinary person would not have been able to contain all this and probably crumble to all this factors.

 

Still even though they might have made some rookie mistakes, Kudos to NAVI and Hellraisers still managed to keep their mental cool and gave us a nerve edging series of a grand finals that i have ever saw in 2 years. which made me watch them until 4am.

 

 


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MagicalFlyingFox #11 Posted 11 April 2016 - 12:22 PM

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View PostBohan, on 11 April 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Personally I would have liked seeing SN at the grand finals. They have their own strats/plays and better individual skill than ELONG.

Given their standing before they were nuked from tournament, it would have been extremely interesting to see how they would cope with the step up from ASIA, and if we were to have another dark horse in the lead up to the WGLGF.

 

Given the previous track record of ASIA teams sneaking up to the podium, the chance for _SN_ to win would be there and achievable. 


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Serene_Potato #12 Posted 11 April 2016 - 01:16 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 11 April 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Given their standing before they were nuked from tournament, it would have been extremely interesting to see how they would cope with the step up from ASIA, and if we were to have another dark horse in the lead up to the WGLGF.

 

Given the previous track record of ASIA teams sneaking up to the podium, the chance for _SN_ to win would be there and achievable. 

 

If only they would stop..uh...

I play artillery because I like to promote dynamic gameplay.


MagicalFlyingFox #13 Posted 11 April 2016 - 01:18 PM

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View PostSerene_Potato, on 11 April 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

 

If only they would stop..uh...

 

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_KayGeraint_ #14 Posted 11 April 2016 - 02:10 PM

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View Postcrazib, on 11 April 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

 

well, we can also see the mental stress for NAVI and hellraisers during the grand finals, they have played for the whole night. And yes their performance during the opening matches were good, but later on they made alot of rookie mistakes. For eg throwing away fv215b in ghost town and the infamous 'applewow rock'. Majority of the viewers and i would not have know about that 'applewow rock' until i saw the grand finals. Still i think NAVI escaped with a 2v1, because of LUCK™  as we can see here in Haku's latest article http://forum.worldof...t-so-important/

 

Oh mind you they are not your average pubbies, take for e.g NAVI's best player Straik is in the top 10 wn8 rating of the RU server with 5.3k wn8 rating and 75% win rate with 43k games clocked. and most of the players in NAVI and hellraisers have 4k wn8 rating! But why they still make rookie mistakes, they are still human, they were exhausted mentally and physically along the 2 days of playing. Not to mention that Hellraisers were under the pressure to defend their 1st place title from 2015, and NAVI were pressured because they were the fan favorites and had expectations of winning 1st place which they did. So any other ordinary person would not have been able to contain all this and probably crumble to all this factors.

 

Still even though they might have made some rookie mistakes, Kudos to NAVI and Hellraisers still managed to keep their mental cool and gave us a nerve edging series of a grand finals that i have ever saw in 2 years. which made me watch them until 4am.

 

 

yes I agree that both are easily the top 2 teams as of now on the global tournament scene. Its just that i expected Applew0w to not only look in front, but behind as well, of course he was under a lot of pressure, its just that 1 errror single-highhandedly lost HellRaisers their 2nd consecutive down to not positioning or trading, but not being careful under pressure. Was a easy win at the end :( Wanted HellRaisers to win tbh, as they pulled it back so close, they really deserved it the title once again, hard fought battles vs NaVi..


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DensetsuZako #15 Posted 11 April 2016 - 02:34 PM

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Winning is LUCK concluded WG League Final :) The final with a batchat stuck in some unknown location on Cliff made me go................ [edited] :trollface:

 

So LUCK wins.

 

As for ELONG playing not so that well, I "suspect" that they are trying to hide some of their better strat for later games (*to catch the better team by surprise when they manage to execute those strat*), but seem like it backfired on them when all the teams are just doing their best to win instead of hiding their strats.

 

Some of the games with YATO seem like LUCK play a major role LOL............. oh well.......... the moral of the story if you hide your real cards for too long you might not get to show it,



baby33334 #16 Posted 11 April 2016 - 05:39 PM

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View PostJimmyJim, on 11 April 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

Winning is LUCK concluded WG League Final :) The final with a batchat stuck in some unknown location on Cliff made me go................ [edited] :trollface:

 

So LUCK wins.

 

As for ELONG playing not so that well, I "suspect" that they are trying to hide some of their better strat for later games (*to catch the better team by surprise when they manage to execute those strat*), but seem like it backfired on them when all the teams are just doing their best to win instead of hiding their strats.

 

Some of the games with YATO seem like LUCK play a major role LOL............. oh well.......... the moral of the story if you hide your real cards for too long you might not get to show it,

 

regarding EL gaming hiding their cards, let's think of it in terms of poker. If you have nothing in your hand and your opponent calls your bluff, how far are you willing to take that bluff to? I honestly don't think that EL gaming would have hid their "better strategies or tactics" for the later games because they were so far behind in terms of games. I think that attrition is a more likely reason why they lost to Yato

baby33334 #17 Posted 11 April 2016 - 05:40 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 11 April 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Given their standing before they were nuked from tournament, it would have been extremely interesting to see how they would cope with the step up from ASIA, and if we were to have another dark horse in the lead up to the WGLGF.

 

Given the previous track record of ASIA teams sneaking up to the podium, the chance for _SN_ to win would be there and achievable. 

 

"cough" without errr ... you know :hiding:

Also weren't you the guy who won the T-34 in our giveaway? 



DensetsuZako #18 Posted 11 April 2016 - 05:53 PM

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View Postbaby33334, on 11 April 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

 

regarding EL gaming hiding their cards, let's think of it in terms of poker. If you have nothing in your hand and your opponent calls your bluff, how far are you willing to take that bluff to? I honestly don't think that EL gaming would have hid their "better strategies or tactics" for the later games because they were so far behind in terms of games. I think that attrition is a more likely reason why they lost to Yato

 

Well I did say "suspect" because like last year, ELONG only shows their yolo style in their tier 8s as they progress and even beat a EU team to reach the final.

 

In the beginning of the WGL last year, they played cautiously to start on with against NAVI, even the commentator mentioned "Seem like ELONG is not the same ELONG they see last year with all the aggression, etc....."

 

So just maybe they are not playing their final cards yet.

 

As for the lost to YATO, some of those games seem pretty close from what I remember. But it might have been they underestimate YATO and still haven't show their best card yet and think they can win YATO since they did face them in an earlier competition.

 

But then maybe I am just thinking and overestimated ELONG too much LOL.................. either way a lost is a lost they just have to move on and try again next year if no one can unseat them in WGL Asia here :)

 

 

If anyone watch WGL this year, towards the final games a lot of time, it's just batchat + 1 RU for those teams, seem pretty yolo and a fight to see who focus better or have better RNG :trollface: I did think that using 5 Batchat + 1 RU might just be what ELONG would do if they progress further, yolo in batchat and fight it out, but unfortunately it seem they didn't manage to progress.


Edited by JimmyJim, 11 April 2016 - 06:21 PM.


MagicalFlyingFox #19 Posted 11 April 2016 - 06:01 PM

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View Postbaby33334, on 11 April 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

 

"cough" without errr ... you know :hiding:

Also weren't you the guy who won the T-34 in our giveaway? 

 

I can't speak for all but i trust a few to not have any questionable mods.

 

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crazib #20 Posted 11 April 2016 - 07:06 PM

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well u can't really yolo much in a tier 10 match up especially when the armor and hp is amplified even more.

 

the only YOLO that is viable is like the bat chat spam, but then in the end that battle became a battle down to the wire


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