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Improving the British Line


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Jarms #1 Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:05 AM

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Latest tree variant.


Edited by Jarms, 09 May 2017 - 06:14 PM.


westybig #2 Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:11 AM

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does vickers use smoothbore gun, i cant remember from other game i play it in.

 

nice research tho, personally i would loss the two tier ten tds (their so bad for gameplay)  find another magic tank for the AT line and make a buffed tortise tier ten for both lines

 

abbot might struggle a bit in tier ten didnt it only have 105mm gun?

 


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Jarms #3 Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:19 AM

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View Postwestybig, on 26 April 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

does vickers use smoothbore gun, i cant remember from other game i play it in.

 

nice research tho, personally i would loss the two tier ten tds (their so bad for gameplay)  find another magic tank for the AT line and make a buffed tortise tier ten for both lines

 

abbot might struggle a bit in tier ten didnt it only have 105mm gun?

 

 

Both the Vickers MBT Mk. 1 and Mk. 3 use rifled guns. The Mk. 3 was completed in 1975 but doesn't offer much in the way of advanced technology, its armour is still rolled homogeneous and the only real difference its new turret brings is an increase to -10 degrees of gun depression rather than the original -7.

 

As for removing the tier X TD's, I'd have to disagree, they were planned machines and I don't hate them. My idea is to add more to the line, not less. :)

 

Abbot is just something interesting I threw in, like the Vickers MBT Mk. 3 it's a bit outside the WOT timeline but could offer an alternate artillery playstyle at tier X. As I said, it'd basically be the FV304 of tier X, except having more range.


Edited by Jarms, 26 April 2016 - 11:20 AM.


mttspiii #4 Posted 26 April 2016 - 04:12 PM

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View Postwestybig, on 26 April 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

does vickers use smoothbore gun, i cant remember from other game i play it in.

 

nice research tho, personally i would loss the two tier ten tds (their so bad for gameplay)  find another magic tank for the AT line and make a buffed tortise tier ten for both lines

 

 

 

That's the AT-13. One sponson has a 17-pdr, the other one has a 6-pdr.

We can swap it for dual L7A1, then slap on some track links ala-IS-3.


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Jarms #5 Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:35 PM

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A quick revision thanks to new information on Status Report:

 

Spoiler

 

I'll continue to update this as new information continues to come out, otherwise the general idea is unchanged. To expand the UK/now Commonwealth line and add some new, exciting premiums to the game. Remember, just because I've labeled it as a premium doesn't mean it has to be sold (though I'd suspect a majority would be). These could be clanwar rewards, campaign or mission rewards, and gift tanks.

 

Edit: Slip-up on my part, posted the wrong image. That's fixed now.


Edited by Jarms, 14 April 2017 - 09:56 PM.


Jarms #6 Posted 11 June 2016 - 10:26 AM

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I've been playing around with the UK Tech Tree again. This one works on the assumption that one day WG will add alternate hulls, similar to WoWS, which allows me to combine similar vehicles.


Edited by Jarms, 14 April 2017 - 09:56 PM.


Jarms #7 Posted 17 September 2016 - 02:08 PM

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I've been playing with my British "alternate hulls" (if WG added alternate hulls similar to WOWS) tech tree. There's numerous tweaks compared to tree prior. Also, remember that just because its labelled as a premium tank, doesn't necessarily mean it has to be sold, they're mainly tanks I couldn't fit into the tree. They could be clan rewards, mission rewards, campaign rewards, or give-aways.

 

I'll be reworking my current tree sometime later today, this is more of a "what if" than anything.



Sir_British #8 Posted 17 September 2016 - 02:25 PM

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I read on Status Report that they consider the Britsih tanks to have become underpowered, and are considering how to improve them, also that there could be a British LT line soon.. or sometime in the future, I would love to see a Schmitar or Scorpion in game! Also the X-Box (and the Chinese server) has the new Chieftan, so there is hope there too!

tekno #9 Posted 17 September 2016 - 03:19 PM

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well considering the issues with the british HT tier X tanks...

FV215b....non existent tank....

IRL the FV215b was a TD.....the FV215b 183 in game.

Then we have Chieftain...

supposedly measured by ultrasound...at 85mm UFP...not the 120mm the manufacturers specified...

now having used ultrasound thickness gauges....I ask....was the gauge calibrated with a sample of the alloy steel of known thickness from a scrapped Chieftain?<unlikely>

I know that the material composition makes a HUGE difference to the returned measurement.

In plastics two grades of HDPE.....when set incorrectly the machine would return up to a 50%+ error!.

Then we have the 120mm DU round having only 310 mm pen in game.....nowhere near the brutal real life values.


 

The issue is Chieftain with the 390EA UFP 388EA Turret<on level ground> makes the tank invulnerable frontally when fighting from a reverse slope<as the designers intended>. Toss in some Russian bias....and IMHO we will never see that tank in game.


 


 


Edited by tekno, 17 September 2016 - 03:19 PM.


Jarms #10 Posted 17 September 2016 - 04:32 PM

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View PostSir_British, on 17 September 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

I read on Status Report that they consider the British tanks to have become underpowered, and are considering how to improve them, also that there could be a British LT line soon.. or sometime in the future, I would love to see a Schmitar or Scorpion in game! Also the X-Box (and the Chinese server) has the new Chieftan, so there is hope there too!

 

I read that too, I'm really curious to know what some of those potential light tanks are -- because apparently they found a lot more vehicles. I wouldn't mind seeing the Scorpion either, not sure about the Scimitar though, a 30mm autocannon doesn't seem very effective for high tier games. If they extend the light tree branches to tier X, I could see the Scorpion as a tier IX, and the Scorpion 2 (with the 90mm) as a tier X.

 

View Posttekno, on 17 September 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

well considering the issues with the british HT tier X tanks...

FV215b....non existent tank....

IRL the FV215b was a TD.....the FV215b 183 in game.

Then we have Chieftain...

supposedly measured by ultrasound...at 85mm UFP...not the 120mm the manufacturers specified...

now having used ultrasound thickness gauges....I ask....was the gauge calibrated with a sample of the alloy steel of known thickness from a scrapped Chieftain?<unlikely>

I know that the material composition makes a HUGE difference to the returned measurement.

In plastics two grades of HDPE.....when set incorrectly the machine would return up to a 50%+ error!.

Then we have the 120mm DU round having only 310 mm pen in game.....nowhere near the brutal real life values.
 

The issue is Chieftain with the 390EA UFP 388EA Turret<on level ground> makes the tank invulnerable frontally when fighting from a reverse slope<as the designers intended>. Toss in some Russian bias....and IMHO we will never see that tank in game.

 

That's why I replaced the FV215b with the "Super" Conqueror, though that's just a placeholder, as according to Status Report that's not an appropriate name. I'm sure we'll see the Chieftain one day, we already have the two "hybrid" tanks. I've also seen sources that suggested that the Chieftain could also theoretically mount the M60 turret, meaning there could also be another tier X hybrid clanwar reward.

 

 

Another possibility is the Chieftain mounting an M48 Patton turret, as the T95E2 was fitted with it, and if the T95 turret could be interchanged with the Chieftains, one would assume that the M48 turret could as well. Though I haven't found any information to confirm this, just a logical conclusion. Another bit of information that could reinforce this assumption is the fact that the M48E4, an M48 with an M60 turret, and if the M60 turret could theoretically be mounted onto the Chieftain, so could the M48 turret. Confused? Essentially I'm saying you could make this a tier IX hybrid clanwar, or campaign, reward. Here's a quick list of turret ring diametres:

 

 

- Chieftain: 2159mm, gun 120mm  
- M48: 2159mm, gun 90mm
- M60: 2159mm, gun 105mm  
- T54 (that's the American T54E1 in-game): 2159mm, gun 105mm
- T77 (pretty similar to the T57 Heavy in-game): 2159mm, gun 120mm


Edited by Jarms, 09 May 2017 - 06:51 PM.


AKASHA178 #11 Posted 18 September 2016 - 12:28 AM

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View PostJarms, on 26 April 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

My proposed change to the tech-tree:

 

Full Tree:

Spoiler

 

Light Tank/Vickers MBT Line:

Spoiler

 

Medium Tank Line:

Spoiler

 

Lend-Lease Line:

Spoiler

 

Light TD Line:

Spoiler

 

Heavy TD Line:

Spoiler

 

Heavy Tank Line:

Spoiler

 

Artillery Line:

Spoiler

 

Potential Premiums:

Spoiler

 

I've suggested similar things before, however, I like to conduct my own armour research and refine my ideas. :)

excellent suggestion 


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Jarms #12 Posted 18 September 2016 - 12:29 PM

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View PostAKASHA178, on 18 September 2016 - 02:28 AM, said:

excellent suggestion 

 

That first suggestion is rather old, the latest tree I posted is my favourite. I know it assumes the implementation of alternate hulls, but that can easily be fixed with some minor tweaks. The latest tree I posted also attempts to keep every tier moving in a continuous time period, if that makes sense, rather than jumping back and forth. The current British artillery line is an example of this. I.E:

 

- Loyd Gun Carriage: 1940-41, historical armament 25-Pdr gun/howitzer

- Sexton II: 1943-1945, historical armament 25-Pdr gun/howitzer

- Birch Gun: 1925, historical armament QF 18-Pdr

- Bishop: 1941-1943:, historical armament 25-Pdr gun/howitzer

 

So, as you can see in my arty tree I've rearranged them according to their era. With the early UK arty revolving around the 25-Pdr, with soft stats and DPM improving as you move up the tiers. With the FV304 being made into its historical dimensions, I think we should also replace its fake 4.5-inch howitzer, for the 5.5-inch the Crusader SPG shares. With the FV304's obvious setbacks, limited range, and worse handling than the tier VII. Also note, I've combined the Sexton I and II into one machine, going with the alternate hull assumption. Players who own the premium Sexton I would get the tier V elited, and the new T51 (an M7 Priest with 25-Pdr) as a free tier V premium arty.



AKASHA178 #13 Posted 18 September 2016 - 01:47 PM

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View PostJarms, on 18 September 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

 

That first suggestion is rather old, the latest tree I posted is my favourite. I know it assumes the implementation of alternate hulls, but that can easily be fixed with some minor tweaks. The latest tree I posted also attempts to keep every tier moving in a continuous time period, if that makes sense, rather than jumping back and forth. The current British artillery line is an example of this. I.E:

 

- Loyd Gun Carriage: 1940-41, historical armament 25-Pdr gun/howitzer

- Sexton II: 1943-1945, historical armament 25-Pdr gun/howitzer

- Birch Gun: 1925, historical armament QF 18-Pdr

- Bishop: 1941-1943:, historical armament 25-Pdr gun/howitzer

 

So, as you can see in my arty tree I've rearranged them according to their era. With the early UK arty revolving around the 25-Pdr, with soft stats and DPM improving as you move up the tiers. With the FV304 being made into its historical dimensions, I think we should also replace its fake 4.5-inch howitzer, for the 5.5-inch the Crusader SPG shares. With the FV304's obvious setbacks, limited range, and worse handling than the tier VII. Also note, I've combined the Sexton I and II into one machine, going with the alternate hull assumption. Players who own the premium Sexton I would get the tier V elited, and the new T51 (an M7 Priest with 25-Pdr) as a free tier V premium arty.

 

yea exactly 

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Jarms #14 Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:55 PM

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Something a little different to adding tanks to, or changing, the tech tree. This post is regarding the 20-Pdr's economy and my idea to re-balance it.

 

Key:

- Green: buffed from current

- Red: nerfed from current

 

So I've done a couple of small changes, the first being I've decreased the alpha of the 20-Pdr Type A to 220/220/270 (-10/-10/-10), and decreased the shell costs to 380/4000/170 (-300/-400). These two changes put it much more favourably against its closest comparison, the 90mm Type 61, where you trade +8 penetration for -20 alpha, so an equal shell cost is more justified. I've also slightly changed the 20-Pdr Type B, though much less drastically, by increasing its module damage by +1, and increasing its HE penetration by +2. This, coupled with the extra +10 alpha, results in the slightly higher credit costs.

 

I feel like these are fair changes, and I'd also argue that the resulting change in alpha makes the 20-Pdr much easier to balance at tier VII and VIII. It also reinforces the UK playstyle of high penetration and high DPM, which drastically shifts away from tier VIII upwards. If you're curious I based these changes on the relationship between the different German 88mm, and Russian 85mm, guns across their tiers, which share a similar calibre.

 

This change would require British 20-Pdr armed tanks to have their rate-of-fires increased to offset the change in alpha.

 

Another British firepower change:

 

As you can see from the image above, we'll ignore the 20-Pdr as I've covered that already, I have increased the alpha and penetration of both the 3.7-Inch AT Gun and 32-Pdr AT Gun. The alpha adjustments are can be explained with two points, the first being their calibre size, they are both 94mm guns but have the alpha of either less than equal tier 90mm or equal tier 83.4mm guns. The second is making them more viable in the higher tiers, the vehicles coming to mind are the AC III, AC IV, and the Black Prince.

 

The other changes I've suggested is splitting the fake 3.7-Inch Howitzer into two more historical armaments. The 3.7-Inch Howitzer, which would be mounted in machines such as the Cruiser I, Cruiser II, Cruiser IV (proposed), and Valentine AT. The 95mm Howitzer would be mounted in the Cavalier-Centaur, AT 1, AT 2, Churchill III - V, Heavy Valiant, Cromwell, Churchill VII-VIII, Comet, and Centurion (wouldn't be effective, just historical). Which is why the former has been nerfed, and the latter buffed.


Edited by Jarms, 09 May 2017 - 06:42 PM.


Jarms #15 Posted 14 April 2017 - 12:01 AM

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Any questions? Happy to answer them.


Edited by Jarms, 14 April 2017 - 10:01 PM.


Jarms #16 Posted 14 April 2017 - 10:41 AM

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Buffing the Churchill Series:

 

As you can see above, I've been suggesting we split the tier V Churchill into two different machines. How would this work you might ask? Well, let me explain.

 

Churchill I - IICS:

Encompassing the original Churchill I and the Churchill IICS variants

 

To explain this quickly, the in-game model wouldn't require much changing. The stock turret would remain the same, and the top turret would be an improved version of the former. The Churchill I would thus continue the tradition of the Matilda, high DPM, high accurate needle guns. With the David Gun, with and without the Little-John adapter, keeping it competitive when bottom tier. The David Gun wouldn't be the most unhistorical gun added to a machine, it's certainly practical, compared to say the Vickers 75mm HV the current Churchill I can already mount. The stock grind would also be improved, as you'd be able to mount the 2-Pdr Mk. X-B after grinding it directly after the Matilda. The Churchill I would have a better armoured turret and standard penetration than the Churchill III, but the Churchill III would have a better gun selection and overall DPM.

 

The David Gun, for those unfamiliar with it, is a 2-Pdr round using a necked down 6-Pdr casing. The Little-John adapter uses the squeeze bore operation to increase velocity and penetration (you see it on the Matilda in-game currently).

 

Gun Options (semi-historical but practical):

 

Stock turret:

- 2-Pdr Mk. X

- 2-Pdr Mk. X-B

 

Top turret:

- 3.1-Inch Howitzer

- David Gun

- penetration: 145 / 160

- damage: 55

- rate of fire: 28.57

- shell velocity: 1264

- ammo capacity: 84

- David Gun-B (with Little-John Adapter)

- penetration: 160 / 175

- damage: 60

- rate of fire: 28.57

- shell velocity: 1550

- ammo capacity: 84

 

Churchill III - V (including NA75):

Encompassing the Churchill III, Churchill III*, Churchill NA75, Churchill IV, and Churchill V variants

 

Again, for the easiest explanation, it'd essentially use the Churchill III hull currently used by the Russian premium. Whilst the stock turret would be the current top turret, and the new top turret would be the current Churchill VII's stock turret. Its game-play would be similar to how it is now, with an easier stock grind of course, being able to now mount the 6-Pdr immediately. For those who are curious, the Churchill III* is a Churchill III converted to mount the 75mm Mk. V and up-armoured with applique armour on the turret cheeks. The NA75 is a Churchill III or IV turret modified to mount the 75mm M3 gun and mantlet from an M4 Sherman.

 

Gun Options (largely-historical):

Stock turret:

- 6-Pdr Mk. III

- 6-Pdr Mk. V

- 75mm M3

*mantlet replaced by that of the M4 Sherman, on both the Churchill III and IV turrets

- penetration: 92

- damage: 110

- rate of fire: 20

- shell velocity: 619

- ammo capacity: 84

- 75mm Mk. V

*when used on the Churchill III turret, the cheeks on either side of the mantlet are up-armoured by 1.25-inch (31.75mm) applique

- rate of fire: 15.79

- dispersion: 0.40

*better handling on the Churchill IV turret

- rate of fire: 20

- dispersion: 0.39

 

Top turret:

- 95mm Howitzer

- penetration: 47 / 110

- damage: 380 / 280

- rate of fire: 8.5

- shell velocity: 328

- ammo capacity: 50

- 75mm Vickers HV

*keeping this for old times sake, not necessarily required but some players may miss the option to mount it

 

Churchill VII - VIII:

Encompassing the Churchill VII and the Churchill VIII variants.

 

To make this tank more historical, and its stock grind a bit easier, I propose we remove the stock turret. It's unhistorical and we're already making it the tier V's top turret. The new stock turret would be the early production Churchill VII turret, still 152mm thickness but missing the 203.2mm armoured bulges (on either side of the mantlet) of the current top turret. The Canuck Gun (an experimental 6-Pdr) would allow players to continue using the traditional British high DPM, high accuracy needle guns. Whilst offering players an alternate top gun, providing better gun depression, accuracy and DPM, but having less alpha and penetration.

 

Gun Options (semi-historical):

Stock turret:

- 6-Pdr Mk. V

- 75mm Mk. V

- 95mm Howitzer

 

Top turret:

- Canuck Gun

- penetration: 132 / 194 / 30

- damage: 80 / 80 / 100

- rate of fire: 27.27

- shell velocity: 990

- ammo capacity: 84

- 75mm Vickers HV

- 77mm HV

- buff penetration to 150

- nerf rate of fire to 13.5

- buff gun depression to -5


Edited by Jarms, 02 May 2017 - 04:58 PM.


dogm4tix #17 Posted 15 April 2017 - 11:34 AM

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Please give us the chieftain even if it's just a parallel tier 10 off the Conqueror

Jarms #18 Posted 15 April 2017 - 01:04 PM

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View Postdogm4tix, on 15 April 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Please give us the chieftain even if it's just a parallel tier 10 off the Conqueror

 

As you can see above, how I've suggested it is the:

 

Tier VIII:

Chieftain/T95 (reward tank):

- as currently implemented

 

Tier IX:

FV4201:

- one of the many Chieftain prototypes

- leads to the tier X Chieftain 

 

 

Chieftain P1 (reward tank):

- there were numerous Chieftain prototype vehicles, as I recall it ranged from P1 through to P6 (though I need to check my sources again). 

 

 

A prototype Chieftain using a canvas cover over the turret to hide the distinctive shape, and sheet metal over the hull to hide the exact armour angle.

 

Tier X:

Chieftain:

- the actual Chieftain, currently in-game on WoT Console and Chinese PC server

 

T95/Chieftain (reward tank):

- in-game model done, not in the game as yet

 

Chieftain/M60 (reward tank):

- very similar to the whole T95/Chieftain, Chieftain/T95, the vehicles could theoretically interchange their turrets with little modification required.

 

View PostJarms, on 17 September 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

I've also seen sources that suggested that the Chieftain could also theoretically mount the M60 turret, meaning there could also be another tier X hybrid clanwar reward.

 

Another possibility is the Chieftain mounting an M48 Patton turret, as the T95E2 was fitted with it, and if the T95 turret could be interchanged with the Chieftains, one would assume that the M48 turret could as well. Though I haven't found any information to confirm this, just a logical conclusion. Another bit of information that could reinforce this assumption is the fact that the M48E4, an M48 with an M60 turret, and if the M60 turret could theoretically be mounted onto the Chieftain, so could the M48 turret. Confused? Essentially I'm saying you could make this a tier IX hybrid clanwar, or campaign, reward. Here's a quick list of turret ring diametres:

 

- Chieftain: 2159mm, gun 120mm  
- M48: 2159mm, gun 90mm
- M60: 2159mm, gun 105mm  
- T54 (that's the American T54E1 in-game): 2159mm, gun 105mm
- T77 (pretty similar to the T57 Heavy in-game): 2159mm, gun 120mm


Edited by Jarms, 15 April 2017 - 01:16 PM.


Sir_British #19 Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:01 PM

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Well after the recent Centurion buffs, at least there is some movement in the Lines, the Chieftain looks such a beauty though, and I would summise that WG don't want to introduce it simply beacue realistically it could compete against the E5, and absolutely knock spots off the Russian MTs..

 

I mean, just look at that sloping, both the turret front and Underplate.. 

 

Jarms, I really wish that one day soon they would finally re-work the British line, if you look at which tanks are the most popular and have the best winrates, the Britsh tanks are laggging behind, sure htey are perhaps in-game-niche tanks and I for one love the recently buffed Cent 7/1..

 

your ideas are as always great, worth a decent consideration by the WG developers.

 

 



Jarms #20 Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:36 PM

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View PostSir_British, on 15 April 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Well after the recent Centurion buffs, at least there is some movement in the Lines, the Chieftain looks such a beauty though, and I would summise that WG don't want to introduce it simply beacue realistically it could compete against the E5, and absolutely knock spots off the Russian MTs..

 

I mean, just look at that sloping, both the turret front and Underplate.. 

 

I don't see what the issue with implementing the Chieftain is. Its hull is covered in glaring weak spots:

- upper plate whilst at an impressive angle is weak to HE damage due to the comparatively low thickness when compared to contemporaries. 

- the lower plate, much like many other heavy tanks, is fairly weak

- the side armour ranges between 38.1 - 50.8mm thickness, making it very easy to overmatch

 

In reality, the Chieftain is essentially a less armoured T110E5, what would make the Chieftain truly exception would be its gun and gun handling. 






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