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Maus line rework


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Rhogath #1 Posted 11 September 2016 - 05:27 PM

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Original Post:

Spoiler


Rework #2
Spoiler

 

Rework #3: Simplified

 


Edited by DeadArashi, 15 May 2017 - 07:54 AM.


Zynth #2 Posted 11 September 2016 - 05:53 PM

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I remember the Mauschen was already slated to be the VK 4502 B replacement a while back, but the plan was cancelled aftee testing the Mauschen.

 

Apparently the Mauschen was overpowered as hell when top tier but heavily underpowered when seeing tier 10s.


Edited by Zynth, 11 September 2016 - 05:53 PM.

 

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Rhogath #3 Posted 11 September 2016 - 06:10 PM

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Which is weired because when you compare it to the Type 4 it's actually very similar. 


                         Mauschen               Type 4
Hull armor:    200/185/160 ---> 250/140/150
Turret armor: 240/210/210 ---> 250/200/200

Basically that is a theoretical "apparently", do keep in mind that while the hull armor was 200mm it was also sloped, while the Type 4 is flat. I remember testing the Mauschen and didn't seem to find it to be under or overpowered in anyway, no more so then Japanese heavies now anyway, and I wouldn't go so far to call the tier 8-10 overpowered


And it's not as overpowered as the 200mm angled at 55 degrees that the current unhistorical VK45.02b has

Edited by DeadArashi, 11 September 2016 - 06:13 PM.


mttspiii #4 Posted 14 September 2016 - 12:50 AM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 11 September 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Which is weired because when you compare it to the Type 4 it's actually very similar. 


                         Mauschen               Type 4
Hull armor:    200/185/160 ---> 250/140/150
Turret armor: 240/210/210 ---> 250/200/200

Basically that is a theoretical "apparently", do keep in mind that while the hull armor was 200mm it was also sloped, while the Type 4 is flat. I remember testing the Mauschen and didn't seem to find it to be under or overpowered in anyway, no more so then Japanese heavies now anyway, and I wouldn't go so far to call the tier 8-10 overpowered


And it's not as overpowered as the 200mm angled at 55 degrees that the current unhistorical VK45.02b has

 

Ah, but notice that the Mauschen side armor is really, really good. VK4502B gets away with its UFP = LFP armor layout because its hull sides are 100mm of stiffened cardboard; at a flanking 450 angle it's only 141mm-effective and is a sure-pen by even tier 6 HT guns. Type 4's 140mm at the same angle is 198mm-effective, penetrable to most tier 8 HT guns. Mauschen gets 261mm-effective at that angle; that practically means that even tier X MT's would only have ~50% of penetration, much less any low-tier tank that even attempts to flank; indeed the Mauschen unangled is already near-impenetrable to bottom-tier MT's . And with those tracks, the HEAT used in most sprem-spam MT's would suffer as well.

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Rhogath #5 Posted 14 September 2016 - 03:51 AM

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you do make a good point and the thing here is that while you could tweak the armor to be a bit unhistorical but won't be anywhere near as unhistorical as the VK45.02b. You could balance the Mauschen by making the side armor 155mm, that gives it 219mm effective armor. It's still strong against tier 7 but tier 8 HT and TDs will be able to penetrate it. Also keep in mind that at tier 8 the KV-4 has 150mm of side armor while the Mauschen is tier 9

Edited by DeadArashi, 14 September 2016 - 03:55 AM.


Jarms #6 Posted 14 September 2016 - 12:49 PM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 11 September 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

   Tier 6            Tier 7               Tier 8            Tier 9             Tier 10

VK45.02 (P) ---> ? ---------> VK100.01 --> Mauschen ------> Maus
     
                        Tiger P
                             |
                            v
                       Tiger 1   ------>  Tiger 2 ------> E75 -------> E100

 

Why not use one of the early Lowe variants as the tier VII? Or just keep the 45.02 Ausf. B as the tier VII?



Rhogath #7 Posted 14 September 2016 - 03:32 PM

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View PostJarms, on 14 September 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

 

Why not use one of the early Lowe variants as the tier VII? Or just keep the 45.02 Ausf. B as the tier VII?

 

I think you may have skipped over this par:

   Tier 6            Tier 7               Tier 8            Tier 9             Tier 10
Tiger P                            -> VK100.01 --> Mauschen ------> Maus
     |                                 /
     v                              /
 Tiger 1 --> VK45.02 (P) ----> Tiger 2 ------> E75 -------> E100

Jarms #8 Posted 15 September 2016 - 11:43 AM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 14 September 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

 

I think you may have skipped over this par:

   Tier 6            Tier 7               Tier 8            Tier 9             Tier 10
Tiger P                            -> VK100.01 --> Mauschen ------> Maus
     |                                 /
     v                              /
 Tiger 1 --> VK45.02 (P) ----> Tiger 2 ------> E75 -------> E100

 

I didn't skip it, I just feel like there should be a second tier VII heavy. It could go:

 

Tiger P --> VK45.02 (P) ----> VK100.01 --> Mauschen ------> Maus

   |                                
   v                             

Tiger 1 --> Leichter Löwe ----> Tiger 2 ------> E75 -------> E100

 

With the tier VIII Löwe being one of (or combination) of the Schwerer Löwe designs.


Edited by Jarms, 15 September 2016 - 11:44 AM.


Rhogath #9 Posted 15 September 2016 - 01:03 PM

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If we are talking closer to historical purposes it would be something more like this:
 

Tiger P --> Leichter Löwe ----> VK100.01 --> Mauschen ------> Maus

   |                                 
   v                             

Tiger 1 -->  VK45.02 (P) --------> Tiger 2 --------> E75 ----------> E100


Look at with their designation not name

Tiger P = VK45.01 (P)
Tiger 1 = VK45.01 (H)
VK45.02 (P) (design for the Tiger II)
Tiger II = VK45.03 (H) (the tier 7 VK45.03 in game is essentially an early design with the Tiger II... both are correct)

Since the Löwe project was cancelled in favor off the Maus project and was run parralel to but never built or replaced the Tiger tanks it would make more sense to have it run like that

In a perfect world however something like this would be more historic and favorable

VK45.01 (P) ----> VK45.02 (P) --> VK100.01 --> Mauschen ------> Maus

   |                                 
   v                             

VK45.01 (H) -->  VK45.02 (H) --> VK45.03 (H) ---> E75 ----------> E100

Then what you have there is a Porsche line and a Henschel line rather then a mix match of the two with a Krupp design thrown in... however Krupp did build both Porcshe and Henschel turrets. The only issue here is that, as far as I am aware, there was never a Hanschel design designated as VK45.02 



EDIT:

Actually, logically speaking this would be how it would go (keep in mind the designations i mentioned earlier

Tier 6                       Tier 7                   Tier 8                   Tier 9              Tier 10
                        -> VK45.02 (P) ----> VK100.01 ------> Mauschen ------> Maus
                      /
VK45.01 (P)

                     \
                       -> VK45.01 (H) ----> VK45.03 (H) -------> E75 -----------> E100


Edited by DeadArashi, 15 September 2016 - 03:59 PM.


Rhogath #10 Posted 15 September 2016 - 04:35 PM

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For those interested there are actually stats for the Tier 7 VK45.02 (P) (Source)
 

Hitpoints: 1,500
Engine: 700 hp
Weight: 64,7 tons
Power-to-weight: 10,81 hp/t,
Maximum speed: 35/15 km/h
Hull traverse: 28 deg/s
Terrain resistance: 1,05/1,25/2,11
Turret traverse: 15 deg/s

Viewrange: 370
Radio range: 740,4
 

Hull armor: 80/80/80
Turret armor: 100/80/80
 

Elite gun: 88mm L/71
Damage: 240
Penetration: 203
ROF: 8,13
DPM: 1,950
Reload: 7,38
Accuracy: 0,46
Aimtime: 2,68 sec
Depression: -6/+15



mttspiii #11 Posted 18 September 2016 - 04:19 PM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 14 September 2016 - 03:51 AM, said:

you do make a good point and the thing here is that while you could tweak the armor to be a bit unhistorical but won't be anywhere near as unhistorical as the VK45.02b. You could balance the Mauschen by making the side armor 155mm, that gives it 219mm effective armor. It's still strong against tier 7 but tier 8 HT and TDs will be able to penetrate it. Also keep in mind that at tier 8 the KV-4 has 150mm of side armor while the Mauschen is tier 9

 

The Mauschen is a bit too well-detailed in the books for decades already for WG to change the armor layout willy-nilly.

 

Compared to KV-4, having twice the rear armor and an alpha-centric gun for the Mauschen (as well as a decently-armored slightly-angled turret unlike KV-4's slab-sided 150mm-sides turret) changes things.


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Rhogath #12 Posted 19 September 2016 - 05:47 AM

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But compared to KV-4, Mauschen would be tier 9, It's also a larger taget for arty, the sides are bigger and as flat as the KV-4 (on the hull) and there's also the cupola on the roof which is flat sided and 200mm all around as an obvious weak point

And talking about armor detailed, the VK45.02 (P) was known to only have 80mm all round with 100mm on the turret front, but that didn't seem to bother WG when they overbuffed it to 200mm on the hull

Edited by DeadArashi, 19 September 2016 - 05:49 AM.


mttspiii #13 Posted 25 September 2016 - 06:51 AM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 19 September 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

But compared to KV-4, Mauschen would be tier 9, It's also a larger taget for arty, the sides are bigger and as flat as the KV-4 (on the hull) and there's also the cupola on the roof which is flat sided and 200mm all around as an obvious weak point

And talking about armor detailed, the VK45.02 (P) was known to only have 80mm all round with 100mm on the turret front, but that didn't seem to bother WG when they overbuffed it to 200mm on the hull

 

- A good KV-4 / Mauschen player would avoid letting arty hamper his plays.

- The true strength of the sides are explained in my previous post. 120mm side armor is already quite potent in the E 75, what more 185mm?

- The circular cupola though, that will probably be the weakspot that will put the Mauschen in-game after all. It's virtually sure penetration for tier IX HT guns (including most L7 gun clones), 55% chance to penetrate for tier VIII HT guns (probably closer to 50% since elevation from the Mauschen's sheer height makes the cupola angled), and is practically invulnerable to Comet and KV-13 (at least Type 4 sides can be penned 50% of the time with AP).

 

Also, WG buffed 4502 as it suits their needs; it's as easy as welding more armour plate as had happened in the Tiger P. But nerfing armor? Shaving off armor? From an existing blueprint? Practically unheard of (except probably for the poor Foch)


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Rhogath #14 Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:54 AM

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Replacing the 4502 would have suited their needs, not over buffing it to the point where it's nowhere near it's historically proposed armor...

mttspiii #15 Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:28 PM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 28 September 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Replacing the 4502 would have suited their needs, not over buffing it to the point where it's nowhere near it's historically proposed armor...

 

Mauschen (as a separate tank) was a later discovery. Back in 2012, Mauschen was too similar to the Maus to be considered a separate tank, thus extending the 4502B to ridiculous levels. It's just as bad as leaving the KV-2 and the KV-2 (107) at tier 5.


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Rhogath #16 Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:57 PM

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View Postmttspiii, on 28 September 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

 

Mauschen (as a separate tank) was a later discovery. Back in 2012, Mauschen was too similar to the Maus to be considered a separate tank, thus extending the 4502B to ridiculous levels. It's just as bad as leaving the KV-2 and the KV-2 (107) at tier 5.

Except tanks that are similare are very many... Historically the 4502 is the same tank with different hull configuration (as we see at tier 8 and 9), the 4503 is similare to the historically armored 4502 but was designed by Henschel to be mid turreted instead of Porsche's two designs. There's also the Foch and Foch 155 where the difference is literally just the gun... And on Sandbox its now just an autoloader of the tier 9s gun instead of the 155mm...

 

I fail to see how WG would care about tanks being too similar at this point now. 

 

fair enough for past concerns but with the current set up there's honestly no reason they can't rework the way the German tech tree is to make it more historical



Rhogath #17 Posted 29 September 2016 - 04:16 AM

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This is now bein tested on Supertest for the Type 5:

 

-Upper front armor buffed from 260mm to 270mm
-Cheeks on front armor buffed from 220mm to 270mm
-Side armor buffed from 140mm to 160mm

-Turret front armor buffed from 260mm to 280mm

That 160mm side armor doesn't include the tracks, with that spaced armor included then that's 275mm od effective armor on the side... Now imagine that angled. I know I'm comparing a tier 9 to a tier 10 but tier 10 firing premium are going to be hard pressed to penetrate the Type5 with that armor layout



mttspiii #18 Posted 29 September 2016 - 06:03 AM

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View PostDeadArashi, on 28 September 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

fair enough for past concerns but with the current set up there's honestly no reason they can't rework the way the German tech tree is to make it more historical

 

Laziness, and that 4502B has become iconic in its own way like the Lorraine 40t. Doesn't mean it won't be changed, it just won't be changed...now.

 

As for Type 5, that's a different thing. Still, I'm excited it gets a bigger derp.


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Rhogath #19 Posted 29 September 2016 - 06:16 AM

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Oh that derp gun will be amazing fun, I might actually feel like playing the Type 5

Rhogath #20 Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:50 AM

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Not going to say I called it about them reducing historical armor but... They just did it

 

Hull armor: 200/140/135mm

Turret armor: 250/160/160mm






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