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A question about M4 Sherman in Vietnam War

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JEKLAY #1 Posted 31 December 2016 - 09:45 PM

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OK, I don't really understand why Sherman doesn't involved in Vietnam war. I mean, M4 quite popular in European Theatre beside of Pz.IV and T-34. Well, M4 Sherman itself had been used in many conflicts and war like Korean War, Cuban Revolution, Lebanese War, and many more. However, why Sherman not involved in Vietnam Theatre, even in Indochina war. Anyone could explain why?



Zynth #2 Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:24 PM

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It was outdated by then.

 

Do you know when WWII and the Vietnam War occured? About 10 years apart man. The Americans were using Pattons already.


 

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Lee_Shawran #3 Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:32 PM

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Let me explain to you as a vietnamese, firstly, at the beginning of First Indochina War (from 1945), French army tried to reclaim their colony in Indochina (now are Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos), but according to Posdam Agreement, French was not the army which had the order to disarm Japanese forces in Indochina, they were British at Saigon, and Kuomintang (Republic of China, now is Taiwan) at Hanoi. So French tried to join the British force to disarm in Saigon on September 2nd, 1945, but had a conflict with Defence of Saigon. At that time, they couldn't send M4 to Indochina soon, so M24 Chaffee were the tanks which set its feet on Indochina's soil (Because M24s were used in most of Free French armies' units). So my nation at the same time had 2 foreign armies, British (French also) and ROC, to decrease conflict, we agreed to let French armied replace ROC in Hanoi and British in Saigon (actually, the British had completed their task and withdrawed). When the French entered Hanoi, they tried to increase conflicts with Tu Ve (Defence of Hanoi) and declared to disarm them. On December 19th, 1945, we began to full counter-attack in nation scale. Because the French wasn't used to fighting in city warfare in Hanoi, their force only fight hand to hand combat, of course they also used M24 and M8 Grenhound, but they were destroyed by Cam Tu Quan (suicide team using anti tank weapons from Japanese), so armored vehicle was limitedly used in city. After Siege of Hanoi, French began to attack North Vietnam, but they couldn't move on foot, they used paratroopers because vehicles couldn't move to there (due to the tropical forest). At the same time, Korean War broke out, US army fought in Korea, so M4s were sent to there (US at that time still didn't involve in FirstIndochina War). Back to Vietnam, the French almost controlled North Vietnam but still not stick with each other, only Dien Bien Phu was a place suitable for establishing a base, M24s were sent to there. Due to light tanks and avoiding being shot by AA guns, only M24s were used. One more thing, after 9 years combatting with Viet Minh, they need a honor victory to retreat so they didn't send their modernize tanks at that time.

 

And Vietnam War (also known as Second Indochina War), when the American entered South Vietnam, they used M46 Patton, after that, replaced by M41 Bulldog and M551 Sheridan, M46 Patton at that time were outmatched by T-54 (from USSR) and Type 59 (from China), also M46 couldn't fight in tropical rainforest, M41 replaced them.


Edited by Lee_Shawran, 01 January 2017 - 02:08 AM.

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Lee_Shawran #4 Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:37 PM

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View PostZynth, on 31 December 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

It was outdated by then.

 

Do you know when WWII and the Vietnam War occured? About 10 years apart man. The Americans were using Pattons already.

 

actually, Americans used M46 Patton, M41 Bulldog and M551 Sheridan in Vietnam War

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_KayGeraint_ #5 Posted 01 January 2017 - 12:50 AM

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View PostLee_Shawran, on 31 December 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

Let me explain to you as a vietnamese, firstly, at the beginning of First Indochina War (from 1945), French army tried to reclaim their colony in Indochina (now are Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos), but according to Posdam Agreement, French was not the army which had the order to disarm Japanese forces in Indochina, they were British at Saigon, and Kuomintang (Republic of China, now is Taiwan) at Hanoi. So French tried to join the British force to disarm in Saigon on September 2nd, 1945, but had a conflict with Defence of Saigon. At that time, they couldn't send M4 to Indochina soon, so M24 Chaffee were the tanks which set its feet on Indochina's soil (Because M24s were used in most of Free French armies' units). So my nation at the same time had 2 foreign armies, British (French also) and ROC, to decrease conflict, we agreed to let French armied replace ROC in Hanoi and British in Saigon (actually, the British had completed their task and withdrawed). When the French entered Hanoi, they tried to increase conflicts with Tu Ve (Defence of Hanoi) and declared to disarm them. On December 19th, 1945, we began to full counter-attack in nation scale. Because the French wasn't used to fighting in city warfare in Hanoi, their force only fight hand to hand combat, of course they also used M24 and M8 Grenhound, but they were destroyed by Cam Tu Quan (suicide team using anti tank weapons from Japanese), so armored vehicle was limitedly used in city. After Siege of Hanoi, French began to attack North Vietnam, but they couldn't move on foot, they used paratroopers because vehicles couldn't move to there (due to the tropical forest). At the same time, Korean War broke out, US army fought in Korea, so M4s were sent to there (US at that time still didn't involve in Second Indochina War). Back to Vietnam, the French almost controlled North Vietnam but still not stick with each other, only Dien Bien Phu was a place suitable for establishing a base, M24s were sent to there. Due to light tanks and avoiding being shot by AA guns, only M24s were used. One more thing, after 9 years combatting with Viet Minh, they need a honor victory to retreat so they didn't send their modernize tanks at that time.

 

And Vietnam War (also known as Second Indochina War), when the American entered South Vietnam, they used M46 Patton, after that, replaced by M41 Bulldog and M551 Sheridan, M46 Patton at that time were outmatched by T-54 (from USSR) and Type 59 (from China), also M46 couldn't fight in tropical rainforest, M41 replaced them.

 

Interesting, are these from your brain complied of different sources, or from book etc?

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Lee_Shawran #6 Posted 01 January 2017 - 02:07 AM

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View Post_EzioAuditore_, on 31 December 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

 

Interesting, are these from your brain complied of different sources, or from book etc?

 

I was good at history when I was in highschool, that's easy to explain based on my knowledge

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_Sabre_ #7 Posted 01 January 2017 - 09:07 AM

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M48a3 Patton was the most common US tank of the Vietnam War. M41 Bulldogs replaced the aging ex-French M24 Chaffes's that were used by the South regime. M551 Sheridan was used as a light tank with mixed results.

Centurion was used by Australian Forces.

North Vietnam used PT-76 amphibious light tanks initially, gradually receiving T-54 and Type 59 tanks from the USSR and China. T54's and Type 59's were really only used in force after '72 when US and other allied forces had withdrawn.

Most of the terrain of Vietnam is generally considered unsuitable for tank combat. Only in the low coastal areas would they have some impact, but given the amount of waterways and soft ground even here they would be inefficient. 

M4 Sherman was a very old design and long replaced in service by any of the nations involved in the Vietnam (second Indo-China War).


Edited by _Sabre_, 01 January 2017 - 09:15 AM.


neokai #8 Posted 01 January 2017 - 09:19 AM

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Moved to a more appropriate sub-forum.

 

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Matt_B #9 Posted 01 January 2017 - 07:37 PM

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The M56 Scorpion and the M50 Ontos - unlikely to ever appear in WOT but you never know - also saw service in Vietnam. Neither was strictly a tank, but then again nor was the Sheridan.

Lee_Shawran #10 Posted 01 January 2017 - 08:36 PM

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View Post_Sabre_, on 01 January 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

M48a3 Patton was the most common US tank of the Vietnam War. M41 Bulldogs replaced the aging ex-French M24 Chaffes's that were used by the South regime. M551 Sheridan was used as a light tank with mixed results.

Centurion was used by Australian Forces.

North Vietnam used PT-76 amphibious light tanks initially, gradually receiving T-54 and Type 59 tanks from the USSR and China. T54's and Type 59's were really only used in force after '72 when US and other allied forces had withdrawn.

Most of the terrain of Vietnam is generally considered unsuitable for tank combat. Only in the low coastal areas would they have some impact, but given the amount of waterways and soft ground even here they would be inefficient. 

M4 Sherman was a very old design and long replaced in service by any of the nations involved in the Vietnam (second Indo-China War).

 

in addition, Australian came to Vietnam, bringing Centurion type C, but they were only used as support fire. Unlikely as Korean War, Centurions in Vietnam had to remove their skirt of would be stuck in mud.

and about the outdated M4s, in Korean War, M4s were nearly outdated, M26 Pershing were almost used at there, in 1950s, most of M4s were replaced by M48 Patton, so they had replaced M4s before it could enter Vietnam War


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neokai #11 Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:49 AM

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View PostMatt_B, on 01 January 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

The M56 Scorpion and the M50 Ontos - unlikely to ever appear in WOT but you never know - also saw service in Vietnam. Neither was strictly a tank, but then again nor was the Sheridan.

 

M56 Scorpion is in prem shop from time to time, tier 7 US prem tank destroyer. Ontos would be an interesting design to incorporate, given its multiple 106 guns...

 

View PostLee_Shawran, on 01 January 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

 

in addition, Australian came to Vietnam, bringing Centurion type C, but they were only used as support fire. Unlikely as Korean War, Centurions in Vietnam had to remove their skirt of would be stuck in mud.

and about the outdated M4s, in Korean War, M4s were nearly outdated, M26 Pershing were almost used at there, in 1950s, most of M4s were replaced by M48 Patton, so they had replaced M4s before it could enter Vietnam War

 

Centurion Mk III, not type C. The British used a "mark" system to indicate each upgrade.

 

In the Korean War, M4s were in the field at the same time as the Pershings and Pattons (yes, M46 Pattons were sent to fight in the Korean War in Aug 1950, about 2 months into the war). The M46 Pattons had some striking camo designs and you can see one example in-game as the M46 Patton KR (KR meaning it was used in Korea), aka the Ripper Patton. There is a Chieftain post that mentioned their respective performance against the T-34/85s the North Koreans had.

 

Ripper Patton

 

Some footage of the Pattons in Korea


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Otakubouzu #12 Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:02 AM

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Interestingly, i tried to google 'M4 Sherman France Indochina'
and i find this:

http://indochine54.f...cefeo/afvs.html

Seems a very small number of Sherman come to French Indochina at least, but it was M24 who sees heavy service.

 

Will go cross-check this later.


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Shilo_Doan #13 Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:46 AM

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View PostJEKLAY, on 31 December 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

OK, I don't really understand why Sherman doesn't involved in Vietnam war. I mean, M4 quite popular in European Theatre beside of Pz.IV and T-34. Well, M4 Sherman itself had been used in many conflicts and war like Korean War, Cuban Revolution, Lebanese War, and many more. However, why Sherman not involved in Vietnam Theatre, even in Indochina war. Anyone could explain why?

 

M4 Sherman was used in Vietnam by French.

Link: http://www.ecpad.fr/...cteur-de-tu-vu/



Shilo_Doan #14 Posted 18 April 2017 - 02:05 PM

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duplicated

Jarms #15 Posted 18 April 2017 - 05:26 PM

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View Postneokai, on 05 January 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Centurion Mk III, not type C. The British used a "mark" system to indicate each upgrade.

 

Australian Centurions formed C squadron of 1st armoured, these Centurions were all upgraded to Mk 5 (or 5/1) standards before being sent to Vietnam. 



Dinozaki #16 Posted 23 September 2017 - 03:27 PM

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There was also some fear that the French would have to actually fight the T-34 and IS tanks from China – to counter that, by the end of 1950, a new tank regiment was founded – the Far East Armored Colonial Regiment (Régiment Blindé Colonial d’Extreme-Orient), armed with the M4 Sherman medium tanks and M36B2 Jackson tank destroyers. The Chinese attack never came however and so these vehicles were used to support infantry.

 

 

However, IDK which M4 Sherman they've talked about. But because they feared about being faced with IS monsters, I might speculate stronger M4, be it Ez8, Super Sherman, or just Jumbo fielded in Vietnam.


Edited by Dinozaki, 23 September 2017 - 03:27 PM.


Otakubouzu #17 Posted 23 September 2017 - 03:48 PM

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View PostDinozaki, on 23 September 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

However, IDK which M4 Sherman they've talked about. But because they feared about being faced with IS monsters, I might speculate stronger M4, be it Ez8, Super Sherman, or just Jumbo fielded in Vietnam.

 

Seems it just regular M4A1 Sherman.

 

http://www.ecpad.fr/...cteur-de-tu-vu/

 

Super Sherman is Israeli made and not even made when Dien Bien Phu happened.

Sherman Jumbo, likewise, is limited production (only 200s produced) and only operated by US Army. In fact we see uparmored Sherman like Thunderbolt VII because Jumbo is quite rare. I don't see how French Army could get their hands on one.

 

As for 'how they will face IS tank' question, i guess they place their faith to M36s 90mm gun.

 

 


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ThomChen114 #18 Posted 26 September 2017 - 09:52 AM

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iS-2s in Vietnam. Now that could've been interesting.

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mttspiii #19 Posted 26 September 2017 - 11:31 AM

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View PostOtakubouzu, on 23 September 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

 

As for 'how they will face IS tank' question, i guess they place their faith to M36s 90mm gun.

 

Air strikes i think


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