37 replies to this topic

[iDd_Sloth]

jessica_raven, on 09 January 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

Not really, its grind/skill(?) based, not true skill based. The advantage stack up with numbers of game played, in game advantage, not just player exp of handling the game.
Take a true skill based game, say Dota ( comparison purpose, hope this pass moderation ). Take 2 uni of same skills, and give them 2 acc with E75. 1 acc got 1000 game with E75, another just 15. Even with same skill lvl, the one with 1000 game in E75 will wreck the other due to the crew skill.
This grind advantage, does not exist in Dota. Even you played Lanaya for 10k games, next time you start, Lanaya will be lvl 1 hero, not 10. And the opponent hero will be equally lvl 1 to.

Wrong comparison since that is a MOBA game and you should compare it to other MOBA games.

Here, when you die you stay DEAD. Hence there is more emphasis on staying ALIVE and getting KILLS while you're at it and hey.. here we can't HEAL either.

So comparing this game to a MOBA structure just ain't gonna cut it.

And in a MOBA game you try to collect gold to get items/weapons in that particular game to have the advantage and will have to do all over again in the next game.

And those heroes are not balanced at all, they have weakness on way or the other *a counter of some sort*

Still on that game, ONE hero with full item/lvl advantage will wipe the floor VS 5 heroes.

Here we grind to collect silver or join tournaments to get gold to get items that WILL stay since we EARNED those item/s.

Also on this game, even if you're in a Tier X tank you'd still get owned by a Tier VIII if you don't play well hence the emphasis on skills.

*Edit: if you want to compare it to a MOBA structure, I suggest you stay there as this is not for you

Edited by iDd_Sloth, 09 January 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[CaptainBer]

I'll admit, I also hold the same sentiments about the money stuff, but meh, I guess it's what keep the game running which I have fully accepted.

But I don't think you should start acting like a critique.

 

But what the heck is Pay2Win? 

 

Oh and since we're both at low tiers as of now, I don't agree with your statement that a stock grind gives you more losses. I think it's fairer to say that a stock grind destroys your stats and your credit savings since you're forced to spam premium ammunition with your stock gun. So please, don't put the blame for your losses at stock grinds. But then again, I have 1.8million credits grinded out in nearly 600 battles so the thing about credit savings draining don't apply to me that much.

Edited by CaptainBer, 09 January 2017 - 02:25 PM.

[Ezz]

Looking forward to your late tier stats ber, when 'stock' takes on a new meaning.

[LupisVolk]

Spending money won't make you win.

 

I have very interment knowledge about it.

Edited by LupisVolk, 09 January 2017 - 02:53 PM.

[zktaichou]

 

The_Red_Baron_of_Germany, on 09 January 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

so.. basically you just want to have the best equipment possible very quickly, without paying or playing for it. WOT is a f2p game, it's designed to be very rewarding yet very frustrating at the beginning so you'd want to spend money to QUICKLY progress the tech tree to get the better tanks you are seeing in your current match maker (tier 10, so you'd be the top dog every time). WOT won't hold your hand while you cry and whine about not getting the best stuff right away buddy. Every single tank in the game have weakness that can be exploited so you could carry the team to victory even with inferior equipment, learn to exploit those weakness and play to your tank strengths. Every single game of WOT is different so you'd need to adapt to it every single time, if you can't then you are free to pick up another game, we aren't forcing you to play a game that you don't find entertaining.

 

I'm not holding anything against this game. It's a great game on its own respect and can be a ton of fun. My only gripe is that the way the game is set up intentionally so that you are forced to lose to signify the difference between where you are and where you could be if you spent a little money. Some of the best experiences I had in this game is when both teams are composed of enemy tanks of only a single tier. I really had a great deal of fun in those matches, *Irregardless* of whether I won or lost, because the gap between tanks are much smaller. If it's designed to set you up for frustration for the sake of making money, I just can't agree with the monetization of this game and it really hurts the experience. Dark Souls infamously frustrates and punishes you for your lack of skill. WoT punishes you for not spending money. It's really quite convenient to say that we should just grind up, but as you've mentioned, the game is designed so that you will be frustrated by even more losses until you get to that point. Would you say that is a good designed user experience? It's quite a shame that this is very apparent in such a good game.

 

Otakubouzu, on 09 January 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

Well, premium content do help players on grinding. And it certainly helps player to get advantages by getting better equipment/modules more quickly.

But to say premium contents help player on winning, certainly not accurate. 

 

I beg to differ. How is paying for advantage not a form of winning against the odds? Statistically if you are a decent player, your win rates should automatically go up with better gear, unless your skills suck, in which case I can argue that all games are free-to-win as well since the argument of superior gear quality is always discredited in favour of player skill level. I believe League of Legends reflect this issue rather well in its rune system (the difference is very noticeable between a fully specced character vs a fresh character, unless again, the player skill level sucks). There's plenty of supporting opinions made that superior skills always wins, but I have not seen a case made where two players of equal skill level are faced off against each other and advantage is given to one of the player. Who would you say will win now statistically? Claims should be universally true, unless stated otherwise (or that it only works under very specific conditions), lest it be another sweeping statement made.

 

Inglorious_Bugger_Austra, on 09 January 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

Every tank has it's weak spots, and there Tanks that Tier 7 which can be Turretly Penned by Tanks in Tier 3 and lower.

Learning what your Tank "CAN DO" is just as important as what it Can't.

If it can't Pen a Tank using AA, then don't use AA.  Use sniper View, and try the Commanders Hatches, Driver Slits, Turret Sides or Rears.  Flank them and try shooting their sides, or Engine.

As mentioned above, you shoot the tracks out, crippling a Tank for your team to destroy.

Don't underestimate the Abilities of 100% trained crew either.  You'd be surprised the difference in accuracy and view between a Low skill and 100% crew.

 

Definitely, but certain tanks can't even penetrate the armour of higher tiered tanks' modules/tracks. Most of the time you can't even get in range due to enemy superior spotting and your own inferior mobility and firing range. Some light tanks move even slower than higher tiered heavies (the irony). So you are out-ranged (you can't even spot for your team, you'll die before you even see their silhouette) , outmaneuvered, and have outclassed penetration values and firepower. Plus the system sets you up for these games. And when despite knowing what your tank can do, with it being absolutely useless against all 15 enemy tanks, I really need someone to tell me what I already do not know. How do you even play the game at this state? I'm asking this in earnest because despite the responses, I still do not see an adequate answer to these issues.

 

[chips_otoole]

Just had a look at your profile mate. And.......the T4 tank your are using is maybe the worst tank in the game. I am not kidding as an elite tank the AMX 40 is absolute pants let alone stock. And frankly it is laughably referred to as a light tank. For someone with 200 games your stats are fine. Just grin and bare it the ELC at T5 is one of the best tanks in the game. Seriously you have to be a freaking unicorn to do well in the AMX 40.

[The_Salty_Brit_]

zktaichou, on 09 January 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

, I still do not see an adequate answer to these issues.

 

 

That's because your not understanding the replies, the answer is YES! this game is designed to make money, lots of it, and it does that quite well, but to offset that 'cost' it gives the player a great experience once they have reached the maximum level for the given tank, once you have a 3+ skill 100% crew AND a tank which is fully equiped and has ALL the top tier modules fitted, it becomes a monster, especially if you can handle it correctly.

 

The games you keep mentioneing apart from DoTA or LoL are unknown to me, but you should also consider other games which have perhaps a different payment system but still offer the same basic requirements, TIME, you have to spend lots of time grinding out your toon in World of Warcraft in order to compete or be successful at the higher levels (end-content) the other tank games are the same, Armored Warfare or [some other game not worth mentioning], free to play but offer a fast-track via micro-payments..

 

As I have already stated, it's all about compensating you for your time, you don't wish to pay , then you will take considerably longer.

 

Forget the user-experience, that comes a lot later, and once you have your fully upgraded tank, then you can also enjoy destroying those pesky stock ones..

[iDd_Sloth]

zktaichou, on 09 January 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

 

 

I'm not holding anything against this game. It's a great game on its own respect and can be a ton of fun. My only gripe is that the way the game is set up intentionally so that you are forced to lose to signify the difference between where you are and where you could be if you spent a little money. Some of the best experiences I had in this game is when both teams are composed of enemy tanks of only a single tier. I really had a great deal of fun in those matches, *Irregardless* of whether I won or lost, because the gap between tanks are much smaller. If it's designed to set you up for frustration for the sake of making money, I just can't agree with the monetization of this game and it really hurts the experience. Dark Souls infamously frustrates and punishes you for your lack of skill. WoT punishes you for not spending money. It's really quite convenient to say that we should just grind up, but as you've mentioned, the game is designed so that you will be frustrated by even more losses until you get to that point. Would you say that is a good designed user experience? It's quite a shame that this is very apparent in such a good game.

 

 

I beg to differ. How is paying for advantage not a form of winning against the odds? Statistically if you are a decent player, your win rates should automatically go up with better gear, unless your skills suck, in which case I can argue that all games are free-to-win as well since the argument of superior gear quality is always discredited in favour of player skill level. I believe League of Legends reflect this issue rather well in its rune system (the difference is very noticeable between a fully specced character vs a fresh character, unless again, the player skill level sucks). There's plenty of supporting opinions made that superior skills always wins, but I have not seen a case made where two players of equal skill level are faced off against each other and advantage is given to one of the player. Who would you say will win now statistically? Claims should be universally true, unless stated otherwise (or that it only works under very specific conditions), lest it be another sweeping statement made.

 

 

Definitely, but certain tanks can't even penetrate the armour of higher tiered tanks' modules/tracks. Most of the time you can't even get in range due to enemy superior spotting and your own inferior mobility and firing range. Some light tanks move even slower than higher tiered heavies (the irony). So you are out-ranged (you can't even spot for your team, you'll die before you even see their silhouette) , outmaneuvered, and have outclassed penetration values and firepower. Plus the system sets you up for these games. And when despite knowing what your tank can do, with it being absolutely useless against all 15 enemy tanks, I really need someone to tell me what I already do not know. How do you even play the game at this state? I'm asking this in earnest because despite the responses, I still do not see an adequate answer to these issues.

 

 

By the statement above you've shown that you still don't know much. (Although it's labeled as a LT tank, it is NOT in ref. to AMX 40)

And that's why you don't rush climbing up the tiers and you thought you already know much about the game, guess again.

Yes, you might've read about the pen values / firepower / Manoeuvering  / flanking / spotting / camo and stuff but implementing these is easier said than done.

Research more about the tank line before anything else.

Read on which tank/s are expected to be bad ... really bad and prepare for a beating.

This is a grind type game and you should be prepared for it (crew/modules/tanks/credits).

WORK for it to EARN it. There's more value to things when you EARNED it.

A good player will know when not to use the top gun of certain tank since not all FINAL guns are actually good.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want the easy way out/don't have the time/INSTANT gratification ... you can PAY but it's your own prerogative.

A good player on a T8 not fully upgraded tank will still outplay an average player on a fully upgraded T8 tank with a 5 skill crew with food (given the same tank both e.g. IS3 or Tiger II).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You don't want the GRIND, you want instant gratification and you want respawn for payback ... go play a MOBA instead coz this game more about the grind and staying alive to outplay the opposing team.

Edited by iDd_Sloth, 09 January 2017 - 03:28 PM.

[Mother_Of_All_Rommel]

iDd_Sloth, on 09 January 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

 

This is why I said Wot are a lesser skill based game. Grinding advantage in wot if implimented in Moba will mess the skill element because you end up with a fight where lvl 50 hero against lvl 15. I dont know how did WG runs WGL (highest skill lvl game in wot), but its best if they give every player fully research acc with max skill crew to make it more skill based fight.

P.s~ Im just comparing salt to pepper here. I like them both in my plate. There's no need to throw away salt because pepper are hotter.

Edited by jessica_raven, 09 January 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[MagicalFlyingFox]

Ezz, on 09 January 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

Looking forward to your late tier stats ber, when 'stock' takes on a new meaning.

 

Tier 9 stock, best tier ever. 

 

Anyway regarding pay2win, i survived over 15k battles without paying a cent... Only deciding to invest some money because i wanted an ac4 felt bad for freeloading for 4 years.

[The_Salty_Brit_]

MagicalFlyingFox, on 09 January 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

 

Tier 9 stock, best tier ever. 

 

Anyway regarding pay2win, i survived over 15k battles without paying a cent... Only deciding to invest some money because i wanted an ac4 felt bad for freeloading for 4 years.

 

Lol funny story that..  I survived up to about 6k games before I even realised that you could BTG after being destroyed, I used to sit and wait for the game to end.. sheesh.. how much time / grind did that waste..

[CaptainBer]

Ezz, on 09 January 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Looking forward to your late tier stats ber, when 'stock' takes on a new meaning.

 

Yeah. The last time I played, my recent winrate was not better than my overall. My beginner's luck will soon fade too anyway. Didn't I mention that "stock grinds destroys your stats" earlier?

[Otakubouzu]

CaptainBer, on 09 January 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

 

Yeah. The last time I played, my recent winrate was not better than my overall. My beginner's luck will soon fade too anyway. Didn't I mention that "stock grinds destroys your stats" earlier?

 

Some line is more forgiving than others, and sometimes with little patience you can even get top gun module without grinding in some line.

[JOC469]

I get it now - OP complains that his tier 4 tank with stock gun can't pen tier 6 tanks, but forgets to mention all of the other tier 4 tanks in the same game as him...

[pokeranger24]

Hmmmm...... One of the problems can be the fact that you are trying to play many lines at the same time and not understanding the concept behind the tanks u play and how they are played.(my PR rating is shit because of this.........)

truthfully I can only understand half how the Jagdpanzer IV is played.............

 

As far as I can tell tier 1-3 are for learning the basics, 4 and 5 are to learning how to play and improving map knowledge and terrain and 6 onwards you fight monsters (both tanks and players).

 

btw READ the comments up...... that some pretty good stuff....

 

I am also a newbi who started last year and I must say Its a good game

 

P.S. watch youtube videos and read wiki  

Edited by pokeranger24, 09 January 2017 - 06:08 PM.

[Ezz]

CaptainBer, on 09 January 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Didn't I mention that "stock grinds destroys your stats" earlier?

VVV

CaptainBer, on 09 January 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

I don't agree with your statement that a stock grind gives you more losses. 

To be fair you did then say destroys stats as well. It was all a bit confused.

[CaptainBer]

Ok... I may have been vague. I was just saying that he shouldn't blame stock grind for all his losses. I was also trying to say that stock grind destroys most of your other stats excluding winrate, since you can still have winstreaks with a stock tank provided you are blessed with good teams until you get to a more adequate stage in terms of modules... forgot to mention or emphasise that.

[camdy]

zktaichou, on 09 January 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

 

 

I'm not holding anything against this game. It's a great game on its own respect and can be a ton of fun. My only gripe is that the way the game is set up intentionally so that you are forced to lose to signify the difference between where you are and where you could be if you spent a little money. Some of the best experiences I had in this game is when both teams are composed of enemy tanks of only a single tier. I really had a great deal of fun in those matches, *Irregardless* of whether I won or lost, because the gap between tanks are much smaller. If it's designed to set you up for frustration for the sake of making money, I just can't agree with the monetization of this game and it really hurts the experience. Dark Souls infamously frustrates and punishes you for your lack of skill. WoT punishes you for not spending money. It's really quite convenient to say that we should just grind up, but as you've mentioned, the game is designed so that you will be frustrated by even more losses until you get to that point. Would you say that is a good designed user experience? It's quite a shame that this is very apparent in such a good game.

 

 

I beg to differ. How is paying for advantage not a form of winning against the odds? Statistically if you are a decent player, your win rates should automatically go up with better gear, unless your skills suck, in which case I can argue that all games are free-to-win as well since the argument of superior gear quality is always discredited in favour of player skill level. I believe League of Legends reflect this issue rather well in its rune system (the difference is very noticeable between a fully specced character vs a fresh character, unless again, the player skill level sucks). There's plenty of supporting opinions made that superior skills always wins, but I have not seen a case made where two players of equal skill level are faced off against each other and advantage is given to one of the player. Who would you say will win now statistically? Claims should be universally true, unless stated otherwise (or that it only works under very specific conditions), lest it be another sweeping statement made.

 

 

Definitely, but certain tanks can't even penetrate the armour of higher tiered tanks' modules/tracks. Most of the time you can't even get in range due to enemy superior spotting and your own inferior mobility and firing range. Some light tanks move even slower than higher tiered heavies (the irony). So you are out-ranged (you can't even spot for your team, you'll die before you even see their silhouette) , outmaneuvered, and have outclassed penetration values and firepower. Plus the system sets you up for these games. And when despite knowing what your tank can do, with it being absolutely useless against all 15 enemy tanks, I really need someone to tell me what I already do not know. How do you even play the game at this state? I'm asking this in earnest because despite the responses, I still do not see an adequate answer to these issues.

 

 

paying for premium time only makes you grind less,it is not a pay to win and its the same with the xp boosters.they are more for convenience as not every player can spend 8 hours or more grinding per day.i can truly say having premium time does not give you a win every time i've had days where i was lucky to get more then 1 win in each tank i have.

 

yes there is a slight advantage over a crew at 75% to a crew at 100% and yes a fully upgraded tank is better then a stock tank it doesn't matter if your a skilled player or not.a skilled player is still going to be better then a bad player in any tank upgraded or not,with any crew skill level,with or without premium time.

 

tip always carry AP and HE rounds if the gun ammo is available also hit from the side and rear also track which helps go for the other Light Tanks(LT) and Medium Tanks(MT) before you worry about the Heavy Tanks(HT).

 

the amx 40 aka "the duck"  was a slow though great little tank when i used it,well once you get the 75mm gun.

 

i think the match maker has gone back to the old default which was a very bad mm,i know there is a new mm coming sometime this year.