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How can a tomato improve the lot of his team?


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agingtanker #1 Posted 05 September 2017 - 07:49 AM

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OK I have bad stats.  I am aware that this is my fault so not blaming anyone or making any excuses.  I am aware that I am a liability to my team and better off not being there but I will continue to play as I do OK enough times to enjoy the game.  My performance across all tiers (1-8) appears to be the same (wotlab graphs) so going down to lower tiers doesn't seem to be the key (other than to ensure I do not appear in the lineup for some of the more "advanced" players on this forum).

So how can I improve my/the teams lot?  Things I already do...  I do not YOLO, I retreat when it appears that we are getting overmatched (though I have been teamkilled more often that I care to count because someone else didn't like me retreating to safe ground).  I give way to everyone (including other tomatoes) and do not brawl except for those rare occasions I happen to be top tier.  I often just stay back and snipe and watch my teams back (keep an eye on flanking enemy and protect arty - depending on the size of the map) and look for lone targets and see what I can do to them.  I did follow around 'better' players for a while but it became an issue of working out who were actually the better players and many times they went into situations that I could not really help in (or I lacked the appropriate level of skill to provide much in the way of assistance).  Perhaps I should just follow others around again - but what to do if I am the only one (ie I'm the only MT in the team).

There seems to be no correlation between me doing well or even top scoring in my team and winning (often I top score and we lose - and that is not from farming after the battle is lost - when we lose we get steam rolled in seconds.  More often than as a TD and I am farming and holding a flank by myself).

Is it simply luck (ie luck in the number of times being carried or not carried as the case may be)?  I had 3 weeks where my win loss averaged 55% and now almost a week where my win loss average around 40%.  My skills/ability haven't changed.  Yes Ping has been an issue over the past few days but my in game performance hasn't seemed to have declined (Damage/XP) or does my ping/latency actually affect others?

There are tanks I seem to do well in and lots that I appear to not do well in.  Is it a case of play more often with the tanks I statistically do well in?

Am I putting too much emphasis on Win/Loss stats?  Last night, although my WIn/Loss was 33%, I had the most fun I have had in the game for a while (playing TD's) but I was also trying to grind my A43 and losing every battle with it and not much to show for it.



 


Ezz #2 Posted 05 September 2017 - 08:17 AM

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Win rate is a tough one to gauge yourself on over short term stretches. There is a luck component that affects all of us. Looking at the 1000 battle 'recent' starts to give you a better feel for how you are actually tracking.

 

As to the 'how to win more' - it's never easy to prescribe a fix for all. There are heaps of helpful hints out there. For instance 'if you aren't doing or spotting for damage, go somewhere where you can' - which speaks to over passivity. There are those who basically advise figuring out where the key location is on every map and go there - pretty much in any tank. There are the force multiplier theories - ie where you look for where you can add a gun to a fight to tip the balance - battle momentum being a key to many wins.

 

Then for newer players there is the 'find someone good and try to help them'. But as you note, that is somewhat dependent on choosing an appropriate good to follow. For instance i'd advise against trying to follow a good in a light, or even some mediums, mostly because they are probably aiming to poke and prod, with the potential of making a hasty getaway. If you're not mobile enough you'll be left stranded. Generally speaking a good in a heavy is probably someone better to observe - even if at a distance. Eg during countdown work out who is good on your team - eg your is3 - then even if you don't follow them around, it can be worth watching their location, are they somewhere you can add gun to, are they isolated etc. and then react.

 

Also the 'covering people's flanks / protecting arty' sounds good in theory, and keeps you alive longer, but generally speaking if you aren't influencing a key location, you aren't going to have a big impact on who wins or not.


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kickim #3 Posted 05 September 2017 - 09:35 AM

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See if you can do more damage.

other things you do are nice and fine but if you are not doing the damage, you are not doing much.


 

try to get into those situations/positions where you can keep the gun pumping and are still able to get back in cover and protect your hit points, or enemy is distracted, reloading or shooting something else. 2 mins in this position is better than 15 mins somewhere useless where there are no targets to shoot or too far and missing most shots or shooting enemies you can't pen.


 

Think of it this way, 1 min of continuous firing and damage should roughly do enough to cover your hit points worth of damage, 2 mins is bonus... 3 mins you will should be running out of enemy to shoot and will need to hunt down the remainder of the enemy team...and collect your badges and mastery awards.



JOC469 #4 Posted 05 September 2017 - 10:27 AM

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Looking at your average tier and average damage, you look to be barely doing half your Hp in damage. This means the rest of the team has to pick up the slack, or your team losses.

 

Your most played tanks are LTs, that (I have to be honest here you don't seem to play very well. low spotting means you aren't scouting effectively, and you aren't doing damage, so what are you doing?

 

You could try posting up some replays of your 'better' games for peer review. You could try watching some of the streamers to see where and how they play, although their tanks selection and play styles will be different. Or you could try stepping back a few tiers and play a different class and work on your crews.


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agingtanker #5 Posted 05 September 2017 - 10:31 AM

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So if I play a lot of LT's and do lots of spotting but little actual damage I get reasonable XP.  It's not uncommon for me to do 1500+ spotting in tier 6/7 but I might only do 100-200 damage at best.  Never been successful trying to do this on lake road.  I keep trying but always seem to die with 0 spot and 0 damage.  All the Youtube vid's make it look easy....  How much spotting damage influences the game outcome?  ie is 1500 good or would you expect 3000+ at these tiers?

Now in games where there are no LT's I assume the spotting role reverts to the MT's?



 


fizzydrink #6 Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:11 PM

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here is my suggestions, they could be wrong

throw all the stats & "what type of tanks i am playing" out of the way,

do not yolo doesn't mean to stay back at where you cannot support your teamates

to fix that focus a lot on maps, like all the ridgelines for a start



Puggsley #7 Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:27 PM

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Influencing the win or loss in a LT is one of the more challenging things you can do. At Tier 6/7 you are probably needing to get 3 to 4k spotting to drive your team on to a win, but even that might not cut it.

 

You need to know all sorts of game mechanics to be successful. You also need to have very high levels of map awareness to read where you need to be to swing the game. For example Lake road is totally dependent on you having your team deploy to shoot your spots. There is no point going there if you see they are setting up too far back to shoot. And there are only a few spots where scouts might be - its very easy to be blind shot.

 

Maybe concentrate on HT or MT, where it is more forgiving in terms of base knowledge, and will be more directly linked to a win or loss. Learn weak spots and armour basics and you will be on the way. It will help you learn to aggressively take good spots, with some armour to be a little less punishing on mistakes. There is a reason that lots of prominent youtube players with great win rates play MTs and to a lesser extent HTs. And look at the Meta tanks, people drive them for a reason. 

 

I think learning to win an important position relatively quickly, then helping the other flank (with an extremely strong bias to heading back to defend your base unless an obvious opportunity to pincer the enemy presents itself) will do more for your win rate than just about anything. 

 

A pretty big majority of teams will not hold up to a decent HT push. Where that strategy is most vulnerable is trying to push on to cap after winning that flank, rather than defending or pincering.

 

For most players TD's are generally too passive or one dimensional to drive a win.

 

Spotting falls to whatever tank is available. MT's do a good job because they are relatively fast, but I have done enough spotting to get LT15.4 in an IS4 on Fjords. Lots of TDs are very effective scouts as well.

 

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that because you are driving tank x, your role is defined. I won a game last week on Highway in the Type 5 by not moving from the cap. Saw that all our meds went to the city and that the lighter enemy team would probably go field. Rather than drive into the city because I was in a HT, just hunkered down and defended. I am pretty sure the IS7 who pushed field and got to our cap was not expecting me to be there. There was a lot of pinging from our MTs on my position and complaints that I was not heading to the city. 

 

 



jumphonner #8 Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:42 PM

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How can a tomato improve the lot of his team?

 

Dont die

Do more damage

Read the mini map and count tanks: If your team is short on a side, relocate and help. If your team has overwhelming numbers, push. Dont kemp bush.



Scrubba #9 Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:55 PM

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Firstly, kudos to you for putting your hand up and asking for help to improve, a great first step!

 

The posts above have covered a lot of the stuff to think about, but ill give you one simple thing to keep in mind 'Always try to be impacting the game'. That means don't let there be periods of minutes go by in a game where your not actively contributing in some way towards victory.

 

Feel free to PM me in game when i'm on and i'd be happy to platoon a few games with you.



Ezz #10 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:06 PM

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Also OP, don't get disheartened if you aren't seeing immediate results. As you have probably noticed, quite a few of us have been around the game for a while, and many of the concepts and theories we spout can take quite a while to pick up and get better at. For some things will 'click' in the first few hundred battles, for others it can take significantly longer than that to start seeing things turn around. So be patient and keep your chin up. It sounds like you can still enjoy the game even if you aren't necessarily dominating on the battle field so stay patient and if all else fails, platoon with scrubba.

Edited by Ezz, 05 September 2017 - 01:08 PM.

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Laserdisc #11 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:13 PM

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I think winning and doing a lot of damage/spotting is correlated, but not as much as people think. As in, "if I do x amount of damage/spotting, I would have a better chance at winning." is something I think is wrong. I've  been in battles where I do 4k worth of damage but I was very aware that it did very little to giving my team a winning chance because I was just shooting at stuff that probably would've been shot to death by someone else anyway.

Winning, in my opinion, has a lot more to do with finding a good position to fight enemies from. Every random battle is different so you can't really find a good place on a map and expect things to go the same way every time by going there in every battle, so for every battle you're in you have to read the map and see where your allies and enemies are going and doing and respond accordingly. Every tank has a role but again, because every battle is different, what a particular tank should do isn't always set in stone.

 

Generally, light tanks should become the team's eyes, be aware of where your teammates are and spot enemies that they can shoot at, suicide spotting isn't very useful because most of the time the enemies that are spotted are outside of the teammates shooting range/behind cover. If you're spotting enemies that your teammates are shooting at, see if you need to be there or not, if your teammates have already advanced as far as where you are and they can spot the enemies for themselves, just move to somewhere else in the map because you don't need to spot for people who can already do it on their own. Camping behind a bush is fine if and only if you are spotting enemies that your team can shoot at and nobody else is spotting them. Never camp behind a bush expecting that your enemies would pop out from a certain area without prior knowledge of where they are or what they are doing, if you're not spotting anything, you're not contributing anything, so relocate and find enemies to spot instead of waiting for enemies to do something stupid and get spotted.

As a light tank you'd want to always have a friendly tank nearby because they will be the one you'd expect to fight whatever it is you spot, but not so close that artillery can splash the both of you. Light tanks have to move from cover to cover, it's preferable for light tanks to go to wide, open spaces to run around and high vantage points to spot enemies from.

 

Of course I'm still learning so take what I said with a grain of salt, I could be completely wrong.

The most important thing is to have fun, it's a game after all.


Edited by Laserdisc, 05 September 2017 - 01:16 PM.


MagicalFlyingFox #12 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:29 PM

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View PostEzz, on 05 September 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Also OP, don't get disheartened if you aren't seeing immediate results. As you have probably noticed, quite a few of us have been around the game for a while, and many of the concepts and theories we spout can take quite a while to pick up and get better at. For some things will 'click' in the first few hundred battles, for others it can take significantly longer than that to start seeing things turn around. So be patient and keep your chin up. It sounds like you can still enjoy the game even if you aren't necessarily dominating on the battle field so stay patient and if all else fails, platoon with scrubba.

 

I picked up the game fairly quickly.

 

When it comes to observing other players, my main tip would be to at least pay attention to where they go in certain tanks and what they do there to get an idea on good positions.

The first main things you want to pick up is where to go generally to contribute. Then its getting a grasp of the tactile skills like shooting, using cover, angling, poking effectively, etc so you are useful in the position you are in. Its a constant back and forth incrementally until you get really good.

 

So later on, you'd go back to learning positions depending on situations and then go back to tanking skills. etc. 

Its difficult for me to get a grasp of where you are at in the learning stage, but it seems to me you might need to improve your tanking skills at the moment before any large gains can be made on learning positioning. You can still learn this from better players of course by paying attention to how they move during a fight and how they position themselves in the battlefield. 

Feel free to platoon with Scrubba and just tell him what sort of tanks you want to use and I'm sure he'd help you out with explaining his thought process on how he positions his tank and where he goes. 

 



Ezz #13 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:32 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 05 September 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

Feel free to platoon with Scrubba and just tell him what sort of tanks you want to use and I'm sure he'd help you out with explaining his thought process on how he positions his tank and where he goes. 

And or he'll sing to you.


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MagicalFlyingFox #14 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:34 PM

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View PostEzz, on 05 September 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

And or he'll sing to you.

 

depends how late/early you're planning on staying up ;)

_A_M_G_ #15 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:35 PM

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View Postagingtanker, on 05 September 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

So if I play a lot of LT's and do lots of spotting but little actual damage I get reasonable XP.  It's not uncommon for me to do 1500+ spotting in tier 6/7 but I might only do 100-200 damage at best.  Never been successful trying to do this on lake road.  I keep trying but always seem to die with 0 spot and 0 damage.  All the Youtube vid's make it look easy....  How much spotting damage influences the game outcome?  ie is 1500 good or would you expect 3000+ at these tiers?

Now in games where there are no LT's I assume the spotting role reverts to the MT's?

 

One of the issues is YouTube's of lakeville and EU or NA streamers have the advantage of having a very predictable enemy and yolo strats. There plays don't always work on our server. I play LT's a bit and are probably my favorite class but I usually don't spot from the middle anymore (team lineup dependent) I spot from the "church??" (is it a church) and around that area there are some good bushes over there that work. You can spot the middle and counter nicely. 

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Ezz #16 Posted 05 September 2017 - 01:42 PM

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As AMG alludes to, our server seems to have cottoned onto the fact that taking a shortcut to get to town on lakeville is generally a bad idea, so the mid road spot can be less effective for early spots. Noting in the mid or lower tiers it may still get results, but probably still isn't worth it.

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jessica_raven #17 Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:06 PM

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That also make mid spot road a good place for blocking dmg mission. But it requires a toonmate in LT to sacrifice himself at mid road making a cover for your lower plate.
Wot.. Wot never change..

agingtanker #18 Posted 05 September 2017 - 07:12 PM

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I have been relying on what I have seen the streamers do to guide where I should go on maps (initial placement).  Example tonight I followed an M41 on El Halluf into G7 only to be met by 2 enemy LT's and 2 MT's face to face.  Of course neither of us lasted long (did get enough time to empty my clip and score 4 pens before I died).  Another example on Murovanka tried for the E7 bush only to be out paced and spotted by a Tier 9 LT, hit and finished off by arty while I was trying to retreat.  I figure a LT (any tier) is pointless if not up front spotting.  Thus far it seems 50/50 getting into and securing these advanced spots.....

I don't enjoy HT's.  They are fine if I am top tier but the Russian KV's (KV1, 1S, 2, and 85) for example can be penned easily from any angle meaning I can't brawl for long and the KV 1 and 1s are 1 shots to a KV2 with the derp.  I tried side scraping them but doesn't seem to matter what angle they are everything pens them.  I successfully side scrape other tanks (the german MT's and HT's) but not the russian tanks (is there a secret to them?).   They seem to have great guns so I guess poor armour has to be the balance!



 


Ezz #19 Posted 05 September 2017 - 07:31 PM

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Most of that will come with practice.

 

When playing lights it takes time to learn what spots you'll get, what will be worth contesting, what you should bug out of early etc.. With heavies, learning what you can and can't angle / bait takes time as well. None of this stuff is 'oh ok, so i'm meant to side scrape vs heavies' and then you're magically golden. Knowing the when, where and how is critical.


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Laserdisc #20 Posted 05 September 2017 - 08:05 PM

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View Postagingtanker, on 05 September 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

I have been relying on what I have seen the streamers do to guide where I should go on maps (initial placement).  Example tonight I followed an M41 on El Halluf into G7 only to be met by 2 enemy LT's and 2 MT's face to face.  Of course neither of us lasted long (did get enough time to empty my clip and score 4 pens before I died).  Another example on Murovanka tried for the E7 bush only to be out paced and spotted by a Tier 9 LT, hit and finished off by arty while I was trying to retreat.  I figure a LT (any tier) is pointless if not up front spotting.  Thus far it seems 50/50 getting into and securing these advanced spots.....

I don't enjoy HT's.  They are fine if I am top tier but the Russian KV's (KV1, 1S, 2, and 85) for example can be penned easily from any angle meaning I can't brawl for long and the KV 1 and 1s are 1 shots to a KV2 with the derp.  I tried side scraping them but doesn't seem to matter what angle they are everything pens them.  I successfully side scrape other tanks (the german MT's and HT's) but not the russian tanks (is there a secret to them?).   They seem to have great guns so I guess poor armour has to be the balance!

 

When you're a light tank, I don't think you should follow other light tanks, after all, if they can already spot stuff in that area of the map, there's not much for you to do. For example, in El Halluf, if you see the other LT in your team is already going to the standard southeast area , you could go deviate a little and spot from the small town using the destructible buildings as cover or you could go to the middle of the map and spot some slow enemy tanks going northeast to brawl using the small hill as cover. You would want to always have solid cover to hide behind when you go scouting. In Murovanka you could even just go straight into the middle town once the battle starts, when you get spotted/spot some enemies just use the buildings and run back and find somewhere else to spot from. Of course these are just suggestions, it'd be best if you just keep experimenting spotting locations to see if they work.

As I said before, where you should be and what you should do depends on information that is available to you, light tanks are great because they're usually the ones spotting enemies and therefore gathering information, once you see where what enemies are in the map, you adjust to that, avoid locations that would be too dangerous and wouldn't pay off very well even if you spot them; and go to locations where it would be relatively safe to spot and your allies can shoot at the enemies.


Side scraping doesn't do much when your enemy is a high alpha derp HE gun like the KV-2. The armor on KV-1 is pretty good if you hide the hull, KV-1S is more about speed. The IS-3 line tanks are famous for their magical side armor where rounds can just disappear into the void. Look for a better position to brawl from, sometimes it's weird seeing a bunch of heavy tanks brawl behind the same wall, it would be harder for the enemy if they had to fight several tanks in two different locations rather than several tanks all in the same firing line. If it looks like you can't win a brawl, look around to see if there's a better place to brawl from behind you, retreat to that place and let the enemy come through so you have a better position, also sometimes there are friendly TDs just camping behind you waiting for the enemy to go through that point so they can shoot at it anyway, might as well give them the chance.


Edited by Laserdisc, 05 September 2017 - 08:09 PM.





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