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XVM rating and win rate are a lot of hogwash


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TE_Saffe #301 Posted 19 November 2017 - 01:44 PM

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View Poststruth, on 19 November 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

I did perform a little experiment recently.

 

I logged into tonks and tried really hard to bother with team composition, with thinking about where those components of each team may go on the map. I further payed particular attention to the min map.

I also did my best to stay alive and only trade shots when I knew I would win the trade. I even ran away from fights or advancing numbers of bad guys a few times and relocated in order the maintain the rage against the Governor General ​enemy tanks.

 

To my surprise I ended up with a 70% WR that sitting, so I tried it again the next day and got a 68% WR, my frags hugely outnumbered my deaths and my Dmg dealt was twice that received. 

Average XP for the two sittings was about 30% higher than norm too. I was enjoying myself.

 

But it was such hard work and a man is neither an island nor can he live on bread alone.

 

But I think my little experiment definitely proved that "winning is luck"®

 

The thing is,

Once you have done it enough it just becomes automatic. You know where to go, you know when to poke and not to poke and so on.

 

I would say there are very few games where people at the top level feels like they really really had to push themselves. 

Again, not everyone can become a top player,

but there are no excuses in my opinion to not at least work towards the 50% mark.

You owe it to your team mates in my opinion. 

 

Go play a single player game if you don't give two shits and stop being selfish. 


Edited by TE_Saffe, 19 November 2017 - 01:45 PM.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 

struth #302 Posted 19 November 2017 - 02:29 PM

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I see you got my gist, main point is that being good takes a lot of hard work and dedication and of course the energy to try and carry every game.

Don't get me wrong either I try to assist the team in winning every time I play and get a bit upset if I am not playing above 50% or if losing, fragging, damaging well and getting good XP, but I have to admit to being lazy sometimes.

 

I agree too, all one has to do is continually use whatever their individual skill level is (providing they understand enough of the basics and don't simply camp for late game damage) in order to improve their personal WR.

 

What some seem to forget a lot of the time is that we all get the same crud teams and suffer the same RNGesus moments, or if they don't get it, they fail to grasp that good players have higher WRs despite suffering

the same bad luck as the rest of us.

 

So well may we say God save the Queen​ Unicums, because nothing will save the Governor general Outright baddies.

 

I know, my pun quote is slightly out of context, but you get the idea.



jessica_raven #303 Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:32 PM

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View Poststruth, on 19 November 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

But I think my little experiment definitely proved that "winning is luck"®

Winning is at least 20% luck. If it was 100% skill, Im sure I'll have 30-35% winrate.


Edited by jessica_raven, 19 November 2017 - 03:33 PM.

''I'll do it tomorrow'', thats wat I said. 10 yrs later, tomorrow never came,

and I forgot to live my live...


Ezz #304 Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:47 PM

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View Poststruth, on 19 November 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

I see you got my gist, main point is that being good takes a lot of hard work and dedication and of course the energy to try and carry every game.

A key point to note is that this will be down to the individual. Some people are simply good at being competitive. Beyond the basic game mechanic type skills, some are just good at applying themselves. Good at being able to focus. Good at concentration. While some people quite obviously are not. In all honesty i suspect that is what separates most in online games. The basic human ability to compete. In life as in games some people are cut out for it while others aren't. Online games are simply another manifestation of it.


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Proloser #305 Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:06 PM

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View Poststruth, on 19 November 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

 

Don't get me wrong either I try to assist the team in winning every time I play and get a bit upset if I am not playing above 50% or if losing, fragging, damaging well and getting good XP, but I have to admit to being lazy sometimes.

 

 

If people put effort into achieving near uni status, even when they're playing lazy, they'll still do way better than the average pubbie. Take SirFoch, he had a lazy game he uploaded in his Emil II. Even playing like a complete turd he still managed to rack up decent damage, which is about equal to a pubbie on tryhard mode.


 

kek


TE_Bolagnaise #306 Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:04 PM

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View PostEzz, on 19 November 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

A key point to note is that this will be down to the individual. Some people are simply good at being competitive. Beyond the basic game mechanic type skills, some are just good at applying themselves. Good at being able to focus. Good at concentration. While some people quite obviously are not. In all honesty i suspect that is what separates most in online games. The basic human ability to compete. In life as in games some people are cut out for it while others aren't. Online games are simply another manifestation of it.

 

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BrutalOlyx #307 Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:56 PM

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I find that the need to win the most annoying factors about tanks. Your XP and Credits potential, certain missions to be completed, rely on your team winning. You can best player on a losing team and rack up a heap of kills and damage when the game is in the balance, but lose and get less XP that the bot on the enemy team.

 

The ranked battles system is better in my opinion. The system where the worst players on a winning team get little rewards, and the best players on a losing team are rewarded. You should be rewarded for good play regardless of win or loss.

 

The desire to improve winrate and need to win is a root cause for toxicity in this game. And is also a root cause of low tier, stat padding and seal clubbing. Both of which comes at the expense of noobs and tomatoes.

 

Damage dealt, Damage ratio, Damage assist, Damage blocked- its stats like these that should count, not winrate

 

 



Ezz #308 Posted Yesterday, 02:46 AM

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All those stats do count.  Those with higher tend to also have higher win rates. 

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

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Profanisaurus #309 Posted Yesterday, 04:39 AM

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View PostBrutalOlyx, on 20 November 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Damage dealt, Damage ratio, Damage assist, Damage blocked- its stats like these that should count, not winrate

 

...but all of those can be padded to the complete detriment of your team. 

 

Drive out on the Malinovka field in a Type 5 and you'll block a shit ton but die early leaving your team down a key heavy.  Camp base on Malinovka in a TD you'll do lots of damage but lose.  Do laps in the Malinovka field from spawn and you'll get some high assisted early but leave your team without vision once you die. 

 

All three of those would pad a metric but are ultimately likely to doom your team to failure which is why Win Rate is still the ultimate metric (well, 2nd behind WNEzz).


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Puggsley #310 Posted Yesterday, 07:53 AM

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And for me, WR showcases your ability to read the battle and change what you are doing to get the win, your overall skill. You do damage when it counts, you can change to spotting if that is what is needed, play aggressively or dig in as required.

 

As stated all specific metrics can be padded without necessarily leading to a win.



TE_Saffe #311 Posted Yesterday, 09:03 AM

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View PostBrutalOlyx, on 21 November 2017 - 02:56 AM, said:

I find that the need to win the most annoying factors about tanks. Your XP and Credits potential, certain missions to be completed, rely on your team winning. You can best player on a losing team and rack up a heap of kills and damage when the game is in the balance, but lose and get less XP that the bot on the enemy team.

 

The ranked battles system is better in my opinion. The system where the worst players on a winning team get little rewards, and the best players on a losing team are rewarded. You should be rewarded for good play regardless of win or loss.

 

The desire to improve winrate and need to win is a root cause for toxicity in this game. And is also a root cause of low tier, stat padding and seal clubbing. Both of which comes at the expense of noobs and tomatoes.

 

Damage dealt, Damage ratio, Damage assist, Damage blocked- its stats like these that should count, not winrate

 

 

 

There is useful damage and there is useless/selfish damage.

Hence you sometimes see purples with blue winrates.  That tells you everything about how they play.

 

And on winning I might bring something up from yesterdays stream on mines where both teams rushed hill, the comment in chat actually made me laugh

Who are you actually shooting, are you shooting the first tank you see or do you actually pick your targets.

 

"3-Month Subscriber
weebl1
:Saffee playing pubbies like clan wars with target prioritisation and shit. I think that counts as cheating."
 
 

I think 3-4 1390s and RU251ss from each team and me in a 907 and enemy 140.

It was a complete cluster fck, and really fun, but 2-3 shots I held for an extra 1-2 seconds and had to keep moving in my 907 just so I could keep picking targets off.

I could easily just have been shooting non stop but getting guns out of the game in a highly stressful environment makes a big difference.

Most casual players will not have the awareness to do this and they will just shot whatever tanks is in front of them. 

 

You see this in clanwars, tournament games and even sometimes WGL games. 

Some people will just focus the right way and some needs to be "told/yelled" at.

 

Nothing wrong with this but just the above example is one of the I guess you could call 1%rs to increase your win rate. 

 

You mentioned that
"you can be the best player on your team and still lose" 

Well off course. 

 

Think off it from someone in my situation playing ar "pro level" of this games

we are probably the best players on our teams 99.9% off the games.

99/100 games we are probably top damage dealers. 

But we still lose 30-40% of our games because there is only so much we can do. Most of the time I accept it because I understand how the game works. 

It's 15vs15 after all, and when you have selfish people who dont give two shits about the team (because i play for fun and I dont care about my team even though it's a team game and I can play however I want) you cant get them across the line. 

 

increased damage consistently increases winning constantly  if its the correct damage, there is nothing more to it. 

Just because you are top damage occasionally does not mean you will win more as that particular game you might just have a stinker off a team. 

 

Not finished my morning coffee and this post went from 2 lines to whatever it turned into. 

not sure if it even makes sense  


Edited by TE_Saffe, Yesterday, 09:03 AM.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 

Ezz #312 Posted Yesterday, 09:16 AM

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Yeah but the 907 is cheating.


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TE_Saffe #313 Posted Yesterday, 12:32 PM

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View PostEzz, on 21 November 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Yeah but the 907 is cheating.

 

To be fair I kind of lost my enjoyment playing ruski meds over a year ago,

They are just to easy to play, but yeah the 907s armor really is stupid.... 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 

Ezz #314 Posted Yesterday, 12:38 PM

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View PostTE_Saffe, on 21 November 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

To be fair I kind of lost my enjoyment playing ruski meds over a year ago,

They are just to easy to play, but yeah the 907s armor really is stupid.... 

I hadn't played mine in a while then out of boredom decided i should try to get my 140's commander onto a new skill (ocd thing as the commander i had been using was from the t54 which lacks radio stuff). 907 comes out. Running 24 wins from 26 this month apparently. Having lost faith in my ability to hit shit after playing too much lights, getting in one of these things is sex. Accuracy, pen, shell velocity, accuracy, DPM, gun handling, accuracy, shell velocity, accuracy. Plus it has armor, mobility and camo. Flapdacoc those pre nerf lights must have been good to compete with these things.


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Sir_British #315 Posted Today, 06:55 AM

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Just as an interesting sideline discussion..  I have just checked the British tanks are  'Balanced' thread and this weeks results are a little concerning. 

 

If you consider that ALL the tanks in this list were recently buffed, I find is strange that they seem to stay around the 50% mark, are the players playing these tanks so average or are the tanks now balanced to be average ? 

 

You all like to call out on statistics as a backdrop to 'denier' theories, well here are some statistics: 

 

Place (22.11.17)

Tank

Battle (in 1000s)

WIn Rate %

 

 

 

 

Tier 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

Super Conqueror

86,992

50.33

11

Centurion AX

38,850

48.76

 

 

 

 

Tier 9

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6

Conqueror

54,746

49.97

7

Centurion 7/1

53,655

50.10

 

 

 

 

Tier 8

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

13

Caernarvon

49,626

50.20

14

FV4202

93,431

49,63

20

Centurion  Mk. 1

51,840

48.56

 

I might keep an eye on this, maybe someone can post a list of Russian MTs and how they are performing, discounting outliers like the 907 which isn't grindable. 


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Ezz #316 Posted Today, 07:04 AM

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Analysis using overall tend to be difficult given it hides the player ability behind it. For instance if the average sconq player is a 47%er, yet they are averaging 50%, it clearly indicates something different to if that average player was a 53% (as an example).

 

Secondly, do those placings discount those non grindable tanks you mention? As you note, they will have a different set of players behind it. Eg, fairly safe to say a 260 for instance would not have the same player group as a maus or is7..


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