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Template MM is a catastrophe.

And it is getting worse

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Brave_Sir_Robin #21 Posted 14 January 2018 - 03:39 AM

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View PostFramFramson, on 13 January 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

The old MM would randomly toss out free wins due to serious imbalances in tank types or mismatched amounts of top tiers, which was frankly ridiculous. It was 2016/2017 and they were still claiming that a program script to write a simple check on two numbers was unworkable?

 

Wargames won't introduce skill based MM because (I'd wager) they already use it to manipulate player behaviour via "dynamic difficulty adjustment for maximized engagement in digital games" al la EA games, as explained by Jim Stirling here  -

 

 

 

 


Edited by Brave_Sir_Robin, 14 January 2018 - 03:40 AM.


azmania3000 #22 Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:04 AM

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View PostBrave_Sir_Robin, on 14 January 2018 - 05:39 AM, said:

 

Wargames won't introduce skill based MM because (I'd wager) they already use it to manipulate player behaviour via "dynamic difficulty adjustment for maximized engagement in digital games" al la EA games, as explained by Jim Stirling here  -

 

Do I want to put on the tinfoil hat or not?

 

I mean RNG is bleeding obvious; E.G. scrub player on 1 shot. I'm going to bounce them. Then I'm going to low roll them, then thery're going to turn 180 degress, snapshot and damage my ammorack.

 

IMO WG does have a system in place but I think its soft.........I can tell when the computer doesn't want me to play a particular tank/tier; because RNG/MM utterly trashes it. Change tank/tier and the pain goes away.

 

BUT; on the other hand when you watch what people do in game; i.e. how they play, you think "there is no freaking way in hell I can use math to predict what this dingus is doing"

 



Brave_Sir_Robin #23 Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:35 AM

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View Postazmania3000, on 14 January 2018 - 12:04 AM, said:

 

Do I want to put on the tinfoil hat or not?

 

I mean RNG is bleeding obvious; E.G. scrub player on 1 shot. I'm going to bounce them. Then I'm going to low roll them, then thery're going to turn 180 degress, snapshot and damage my ammorack.

 

IMO WG does have a system in place but I think its soft.........I can tell when the computer doesn't want me to play a particular tank/tier; because RNG/MM utterly trashes it. Change tank/tier and the pain goes away.

 

BUT; on the other hand when you watch what people do in game; i.e. how they play, you think "there is no freaking way in hell I can use math to predict what this dingus is doing"

 

 

If you watched the video above, you'd read EA claims the player never notices the subtle adjustments, and they get up to a 9% increase in player time. WoT is complex game where minor tweaks in spawn position, team composition, damage, and RNG whould never be noticed. Wargames will have a massive database of player behaviour, signs a player is playing or spending less, etc etc. It would be easy to tweak here and there to keep stringing players along.

BrutalOlyx #24 Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:16 AM

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View PostAoyama_Blue_Mountain, on 13 January 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

 

I'm pretty sure the current MM tosses out even more free wins and losses with all the bottom tier battles.

 

No, the mirrored matchmaking is an excellent improvement in the game, and rarely is the tank composition a reason for the loss. People called for the mirrored matchmaking for a long time before WG delivered, but they didi deliver it in the end and made for a better game.

 

Now, I think the next push is for +1/-1 matchmaking, and hopefully WG will deliver on this too.

 

 



azmania3000 #25 Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

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View PostBrave_Sir_Robin, on 14 January 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

 It would be easy to tweak here and there to keep stringing players along.

 

Oh dear now we're spiralling into some Orwellian nightmare. The forums are just some churn bucket to keep the payers playing arghhhhhhhh

 

I notice RNG. 

 

10 years of competitive Tennis taught me a thing or two about the application of consistent behaviour, discipline and skill mastery. It also taught me how to track an object making constant acceleration changes @ 150kph, and predict its position up to 30 seconds in the future.

 

RNG is bogus, period. It doesn't remind me of any of my physics classes from shcool.....or share any relation to classical physics that one would expect when modelling OBJECTS IN MOTION.......why the [edited] would it????? really

 

But RNG is predictable......because it operates in a fixed pattern. I know it's going to screw me most of the time and try help the other guy out; so I try and mitigate the effects. But one can only sustain that for so long before tilting



DanLBob #26 Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:52 AM

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View PostBrutalOlyx, on 14 January 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

 

No, the mirrored matchmaking is an excellent improvement in the game, and rarely is the tank composition a reason for the loss. People called for the mirrored matchmaking for a long time before WG delivered, but they didi deliver it in the end and made for a better game.

 

Now, I think the next push is for +1/-1 matchmaking, and hopefully WG will deliver on this too.

 

 

 

Sorry but again to hark back to my experience with Queue Warfare it started with tight +/-1 MM and it was definitely nice. However as they added more modes (PvE and GLOPS) and completed the tiers (up to T10) the relatively small population was spread too thin and queue times increased markedly, especially for the PvP mode which needed 30 players to make a match. Once the PvP players had left the much reduced pool of players started to effect the wait times for PvE too. The devs eventually loosened the MM and reduced team sizes but it was too little too late.

 

This server already has some issues with a smaller population impacting player experience. I've seen a couple of threads on the subject since I returned including one about players getting comparatively less return from personal reserves due to wait times. If WG were to look at introducing a formal +/-1 MM limit then I would want them to be able to vary it on each server as needed so that we weren't tied to mechanisms that work just fine for the RU server but could kill us. I would want them to to be comited to very close monitoring of people wait times and any drop off in player population. It doesn't need much of a drop off to drive up queue times further and then we end up snowballing. I don't want to see another game I like and have invested in die because the devs applied a one size fits all approach.

 

I do recognise that some would argue that the existing MM might also have a detrimental effect on player retention and therefore a switch to +/- might actually improve things. I just people to be aware of the potential dangers so we could lobby to ensure mechanisms are in place to spot them and manage them quickly if this ever comes up.

 

Dan


Edited by DanLBob, 14 January 2018 - 10:03 AM.


DanLBob #27 Posted 14 January 2018 - 10:02 AM

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View Postazmania3000, on 14 January 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

 

Oh dear now we're spiralling into some Orwellian nightmare. The forums are just some churn bucket to keep the payers playing arghhhhhhhh

 

I notice RNG. 

 

10 years of competitive Tennis taught me a thing or two about the application of consistent behaviour, discipline and skill mastery. It also taught me how to track an object making constant acceleration changes @ 150kph, and predict its position up to 30 seconds in the future.

 

RNG is bogus, period. It doesn't remind me of any of my physics classes from shcool.....or share any relation to classical physics that one would expect when modelling OBJECTS IN MOTION.......why the [edited] would it????? really

 

But RNG is predictable......because it operates in a fixed pattern. I know it's going to screw me most of the time and try help the other guy out; so I try and mitigate the effects. But one can only sustain that for so long before tilting

 

There is a difference between a tennis ball flying through the AIR (and possibly bouncing on a nice flat court surface) and a vehicle running across a rough surface. Consider how much difference a small crack on the pitch can make to the movement of a cricket ball. Now consider the the pitching and rolling you tank experiences when running across the undulating terrain of the maps in this game. Do you know every rise and dip that your target vehicle is going to encounter as it moves? Can you precisely predict exactly what the angles of incidence for your shot will be? Personally I consider a lot of what people call RNG to actually be the games physics engine at work.

 

I'm not denying that RNG exists, the devs have never hidden the fact. I have had plenty of [edited] moments but of course as one's own skill climbs the need to feel that one is in complete control goes along with it. Fortunately I'm mediocre enough to be able to shrug it off.

 

Dan


Edited by DanLBob, 14 January 2018 - 10:04 AM.


azmania3000 #28 Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:18 AM

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View PostDanLBob, on 14 January 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

There is a difference between a tennis ball flying through the AIR (and possibly bouncing on a nice flat court surface) and a vehicle running across a rough surface. Consider how much difference a small crack on the pitch can make to the movement of a cricket ball. Now consider the the pitching and rolling you tank experiences when running across the undulating terrain of the maps in this game. 

 

There's nothing picture perfect about tennis courts....and playing in Melbourne; windy as all crap.

 

Once you start playing guys that can serve over 170 kph you need to develop some pretty sharp reaction times; because the scientific community agrees that its physically impossible for the human eye to track an object moving at such speed. That's why time and practice are rewarded with skill.

 

Any decent player will learn pretty fast if the court is up to scratch. Common deviations;

  • Did you measure the net height? Is it regulation?
  • Forehand baseline has a ditch, because that's where everyone stands to serve (duhhhh)
  • Oh look the surface isn't flat; I can tell because it was raining an hour ago and there's a gigantic puddle on my side of the court
  • "En Tous Cas" is an absolute dog to play on; for many many many reasons. This is why Federer loses and Raffa always wins; and what makes a Grand Slam so elusive

 

 

View PostDanLBob, on 14 January 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

Do you know every rise and dip that your target vehicle is going to encounter as it moves? Can you precisely predict exactly what the angles of incidence for your shot will be?

 

Yes, yes I do...and I can. I'm not God@shooting, because I'm not consistent. But once in a while I can reach beyond the norm and pull off something freakish

 

Not that I have the replay, but I once got a blindshot kill on a batchatAP that was moving away at full speed and had disappeared for at least 5 seconds. When I landed the killshot it was out of draw range

 

The whole point of the sport analogy is that;

 

1). Yes there are variable elements to each game, but the variables can be observed

2). Variables influence control events that everyone has opportunity to exploit

 

E.G.

  • Many sports teams have the coveted 'home-ground' advantage because they can predict variable elements. Thus competition rosters are created where everyone has opportunity for their 'home ground'.
  • Matches rotate sides of play to distribute the influence of variable elements. While this happens in WGL, pubs don't rotate map spawns for equal distribution

 

My beef with RNG is that;

 

  • 1). There's no wind direction indicator, no barrel pressure gauge, no alignment indicator to tell me [edited] is going on in the "environment"
  • 2). There's absolutely nothing I can do if RNG goes off point for a match....this is why I hate arty. I play 1 game where shots land outside the reticle, then the next game I'm landing shells on LT engine decks running @60kph, when I'm actually trying to splash track the LT.......just completely broken as crap.

 

RNG will simply make my shot miss for no other reason than "Sorry computer says no, It's not your turn"

 

View PostDanLBob, on 14 January 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

I do recognise that some would argue that the existing MM might also have a detrimental effect on player retention and therefore a switch to +/- might actually improve things. I just people to be aware of the potential dangers so we could lobby to ensure mechanisms are in place to spot them and manage them quickly if this ever comes up.

 

Hey I can agree with you on something yay

 

One thing I've seen while doing a little seeal clubbing, is that there have been a lot of 12v12 and 10v10 queue dumps on the ANZ server, and it actually makes a lot of the maps more enjoyable. More room to play with

 

Maybe 15v15 requires more co-ordination than can be reasonably expected in a random environment? That and the maps aren't really set up for them

 

Cycle more games with less per team maybe? If this were the case then you would need +/-1 MM; +2's would be god


Edited by azmania3000, 14 January 2018 - 11:20 AM.


EnglishBob #29 Posted 14 January 2018 - 01:32 PM

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azmania u lost me at physics ..... but I do understand ...... I have been wearing a tin foil hat for years ...... and when started rambling about this they just said it's too tight ( the hat )  .... WG is not a Random Company .. it is a Legit Business :P

azmania3000 #30 Posted 14 January 2018 - 01:43 PM

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View PostEnglishBob, on 14 January 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

azmania u lost me at physics ..... but I do understand ...... I have been wearing a tin foil hat for years ...... and when started rambling about this they just said it's too tight ( the hat )  .... WG is not a Random Company .. it is a Legit Business :P

 

I fail to accept the premise that a machine, designed to calculate immense numbers, incredibly fast, with amazing precision......operates on implicitly "unpredictable" events.

 

The exact operating nature of this machine is lost to me, but I got a pretty solid hunch where the beef is :justwait:



Puggsley #31 Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:10 AM

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View PostBrave_Sir_Robin, on 12 January 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

So IMHO the jury is well and truly in. Be it Circonflexes, Lemmingrush, Quickybaby or my own experiences and chat anecdotes template based MM is now widely agreed to be a miserable failure. The idea that special game modes would suck enough tier X tanks out of pubby battles to allow tier VIII to frequently be top tier just hasn't happened. Tier VIII - the heart of the game, home of all premium tanks, arguably previously the most interesting tier - has been utterly and completely [Redacted] over. Worst of all, if anything blow out results (IMHO anything less than 15-6) seem (yes I know anecdote doesn't cut with all the OCD keyboard maths professors out there) to be becoming more common - at least in the opinion of pro streamers like QB and Circonflexes. Template based MM has encouraged a rush to tier X which means that tier is infested with players who skill level and map awareness means they should still really be playing Tier VI-VII with a tier VIII premium or two - and when they get killed easily by slightly better players, the surviving Tier X tanks (esppecially the OP super heavies) just slaughter the tier VIIIs.

 

The questions are, did Wargames REALLY introduce template based MM to try and fix the matchmaker, or did they actually do it to force Tier VIII players to fire premium (ka-ching goes the cash register) ammo to try and stay competitive? And has anyone heard of any plan to revert to the old MM?

 

 

 

 Blowouts come when players, just like you, decide at the start that its a loss and either suicide or sulk in a corner and not shoot.

 

MM hurts players who cannot adapt and learn how to play a support role.



BrutalOlyx #32 Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:49 AM

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View PostDanLBob, on 14 January 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

I do recognise that some would argue that the existing MM might also have a detrimental effect on player retention and therefore a switch to +/- might actually improve things. I just people to be aware of the potential dangers so we could lobby to ensure mechanisms are in place to spot them and manage them quickly if this ever comes up.

 

Dan

 

Tier3 currently has +1/-1 matchmaking and there is little or no delay to get a game.

 

I think initially at least they need +1 matchmaking at low tiers and fill the gaps with bots, like they do in Word of Warships. Much better for new player retention.



CardinalMite #33 Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:14 PM

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View PostBrutalOlyx, on 14 January 2018 - 11:49 PM, said:

 

Tier3 currently has +1/-1 matchmaking and there is little or no delay to get a game.

 

I think initially at least they need +1 matchmaking at low tiers and fill the gaps with bots, like they do in Word of Warships. Much better for new player retention.

Try that at tier 10 on the ANZ server. 3-4 minutes is not uncommon and hitting the timeout does happen. You make it so Tier 10 can’t see tier 8s and you will see those timings for Singapore server and basically kill the ANZ server. 

 

Also it would be the final nail in the coffin for any preferential tier 8 tank if it did not ever see tier 6s as opposed almost never now. 


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Mudguts4710 #34 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:01 PM

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With the 48% bonus from my decorations Tier 9 has been my happy place for the last couple of weeks... +1 matchmaking (max) AND making silver in every game...

If only the deco's would reduce the RNG effect by 48% as well. 


Edited by Mudguts4710, 15 January 2018 - 09:04 PM.

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Guderian_Alpha_001 #35 Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:46 PM

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Matchmaking is NOT skill-based but I think tanktype based. 

 

My advice. 

 

Don't sweat it too much getting all stressed out over a game you have less than 7 percent chance to control the outcome. 

 

Just play the way you wanna play and have fun. 



Ezz #36 Posted 17 January 2018 - 07:30 PM

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View PostGuderian_Alpha_001, on 17 January 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

Matchmaking is NOT skill-based but I think tanktype based. 

 

My advice. 

 

Don't sweat it too much getting all stressed out over a game you have less than 7 percent chance to control the outcome. 

 

Just play the way you wanna play and have fun. 

 

Absolutely this. If you are generally bad at anything competitive, lose a lot in life, then worrying about being bad will just make you feel bad. Best to ignore the fact that most people are better than you. At least that way even if you are shit, you won't feel shit. It'll be a rare win!

Edited by Ezz, 17 January 2018 - 07:34 PM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

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azmania3000 #37 Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:22 PM

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View PostEzz, on 17 January 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

 

Absolutely this. If you are generally bad at anything competitive, lose a lot in life, then worrying about being bad will just make you feel bad. Best to ignore the fact that most people are better than you. At least that way even if you are shit, you won't feel shit. It'll be a rare win!

 

Wait are you selling something? I'll have 3, no, 7 of whatever the crap it is. I neeed some fast answers that don't require effort AND inflate my ego. Can I also hire a lackey to follow me around and praise my self-indulgent monologues?

 

View PostBrave_Sir_Robin, on 14 January 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

 

If you watched the video above, you'd read EA claims the player never notices the subtle adjustments, and they get up to a 9% increase in player time. WoT is complex game where minor tweaks in spawn position, team composition, damage, and RNG whould never be noticed. Wargames will have a massive database of player behaviour, signs a player is playing or spending less, etc etc. It would be easy to tweak here and there to keep stringing players along.

 

Hmmmmmmmmm; had another think about it and....................IMO its hard to tell.

 

Are win streaks luck of the draw?

 

It feels like when I come off a streak that the computer has dumped on me; but considering this server isn't running big numbers its really going to be hard to implement.

 

Tooning this is implemented; with ANZ subserver it makes tooning impossible 

 

Possible in EU/RU but here it really feels like luck of the draw.

 

I would like an explanation as to what halts my win streaks and starts dumping losses....but it doesn't feel like the matrix yet



hate_pubbehs #38 Posted Today, 04:11 AM

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Old MM was better

I would rather have all same tier than the current shit

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_A_M_G_ #39 Posted Today, 06:34 AM

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View Posthate_pubbehs, on 19 January 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

Old MM was better

I would rather have all same tier than the current shit

 

I tend to agree and the main reason I am not playing much at the moment.

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FramFramson #40 Posted Today, 11:22 AM

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New MM is the primary reason my WR% is down about 1-3% across all my T8s.

 

Obviously T9 (and TX) are much better presently, but you're not grinding cash playing those tiers (well except right now with all the crazy stacked bonuses - but playing T8 prems makes way WAY more).


Edited by FramFramson, Today, 11:23 AM.

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