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Wargamimg please remove SPG from the game

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Poll: Should SPG be in this game.? (166 members have cast votes)

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Should SPG be in this game.?

  1. Yes (84 votes [50.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.60%

  2. No (82 votes [49.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.40%

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Puggsley #41 Posted 30 March 2018 - 09:42 PM

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If you are playing campy then its very unlikely that you will be targeted by arty. They shoot at lit targets and these guys are lit a LOT. Their damage output from forward positions is insane and they very often shoot from the same spot over and over.

 

Will be interested to see your data though.



Puggsley #42 Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:04 PM

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View PostRITZ_GodSpeed, on 28 March 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

 

tell me the options you are talking about to avoid 3 arty focus

 

Firstly 3 arty in a game happens infrequently. 6 x 3 arty games in the 43 top class unicum games I have watched and observed arty impact in detail. On average from these games there is 1.4 arty per game.

 

Arty focus also happens almost never. These guys who play a very aggessive and exposed to arty style get hit on average 0.5 times per game. And they suffer on average 104 hp of damage per game. I have only seen 1 instance of arty focussing on Saffe (none on Val), he got hit three times in a few seconds and 2 of those shots did no damage only tracking and stun. This happened late in the game as he was pushing close to arty position.

 

Complaining about arty is not based on anything real (at this stage with the small data set).

 

XVM sniping appears to be a something of a myth.



Ezz #43 Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:17 AM

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Just for clarity those 43 games are any game right, not just the ones they do well in? 

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

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xXRainbowAssassinx #44 Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:22 AM

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View PostPuggsley, on 29 March 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

The arty threat is way overblown.

 

Have a look at Pro's games in the following post.

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.asia/index.php?/topic/79527-prolosers-badly-commentated-antics/

 
WZ111-5A game on Westfield - 2 arty goes to extremely aggressive location with hardly any arty cover and repeatedly pokes to shoot enemy every time gun is loaded. Prime target for XVM sniping arty and takes 1 hit for 172hp. 
140 game on Fiery Salient - 1 arty goes to extremely aggressive location with hardly any arty cover and repeatedly pokes to shoot enemy every time gun is loaded. Prime target for XVM sniping arty and takes 0 hits.
140 game on Swamp - 1 arty goes to extremely aggressive locations with some arty cover and repeatedly pokes to shoot enemy every time gun is loaded. Prime target for XVM sniping arty and takes 0 hits.
CAX game on Steppes - 1 arty goes to extremely aggressive locations with some arty cover and repeatedly pokes to shoot enemy every time gun is loaded. Prime target for XVM sniping arty and takes 1 hit for 364 hp. 
 
Arty is such a concern for Pro that he only mentions once where to be careful of it. If arty was such a threat then I would have expected him to be regularly talking about arty in terms of the need for caution - especially in positions with no arty cover. 
 
Obviously XVM sniping arty really cramps peoples style and totally prevents aggressive play. You only need to watch any of the great players streaming to see the impact of XVM sniping arty and how restrictive it is on aggressive play. Occasionally it happens but it is generally pretty rare. And these are the players at highest risk. They have zero XVM camo and are obviously targeted by arty nearly every game - some of them say they are targeted each and every game! Its incredible that they can be targeted and still manage to get huge average damage!
 
The weird fixation on the impact of arty is very surprising and totally at odds with any evidence. Anyone who disagrees please run the arty damage mod and post your results so we can see how many times you are shot by arty and how much damage it does.
 

 

Hey puggs as MFF said those games I was able to do stuff because arty was to [edited] not to realise I should have been the priority target. I play like there is no arty in the game most times and if I get hit I just rage and get into the next game, hence why it appears I'm not worried about it. 

 

The number of times I mention it doesn't really give a good indication of my opinions or how bad it is, I'm just at the stage where I expect to get crapped upon anywhere I go and if it doesn't happen that's a bonus. There's a reason why I mention the number of arty at the start of a game.... It's so I can mentally prepare myself for the rain should it pour.

 

Keep in mind it's not how often arty focus happens that is the problem, it's when it does happen that the issues arise. Maps like Prok or Malinovka are unplayable as a top tier heavy or medium if there are more than 1 arty per team. Unless you camp you are not arty safe, because there are no arty safe positions on the more important parts of the map. As soon as you get spotted you get hit for 700 or so combined if there are 3 arty on the game, not to mention the stun.


Edited by Proloser_The_Atomistic, 31 March 2018 - 08:25 AM.


The_Salty_Brit_ #45 Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:49 AM

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View PostProloser_The_Atomistic, on 31 March 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

 

Hey puggs as MFF said those games I was able to do stuff because arty was to [edited] not to realise I should have been the priority target. I play like there is no arty in the game most times and if I get hit I just rage and get into the next game, hence why it appears I'm not worried about it. 

 

The number of times I mention it doesn't really give a good indication of my opinions or how bad it is, I'm just at the stage where I expect to get crapped upon anywhere I go and if it doesn't happen that's a bonus. There's a reason why I mention the number of arty at the start of a game.... It's so I can mentally prepare myself for the rain should it pour.

 

Keep in mind it's not how often arty focus happens that is the problem, it's when it does happen that the issues arise. Maps like Prok or Malinovka are unplayable as a top tier heavy or medium if there are more than 1 arty per team. Unless you camp you are not arty safe, because there are no arty safe positions on the more important parts of the map. As soon as you get spotted you get hit for 700 or so combined if there are 3 arty on the game, not to mention the stun.

 

​As a fairly new SPG player, and not one out of passion but more necessity (I want to unlock/own ALL the grindable British tier X tanks) I have to point out that sometimes I focus a player not because of their stats but because of their position and usefulness to the battle (if they are in a key positon or causing too much damage) . 

 

Yesterday on Steppes there was a Teal player in an M46 Patton who stayed on the top ridge and was sniping, he was 1: easy shoot-able (clickable?) and 2: causing havoc to our team, I didn't mange to destroy him, but I certainly made his life more difficult. It had nothing to do with his colour, more about his playstyle and how dangerous he was to my team. 

 

There are / will always bee XVM snipers, unfortunately but I feel those SPG players who are serious about helping their team gain a victory, try to help the team and not just shell an individual, Abbey, same thing, I concentrated on the lower corridor (1-2 line) because there were more tanks to aim at and only a 45.02B defending, although the Blues/Purples were trying to advance along the top corridor, we won. 

 

Priorities are the key to winning not just bombing that lone Purple player... 

 

 


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philrsmith #46 Posted 31 March 2018 - 09:16 AM

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Very British of you sir, I to am a old brit  and play the same way  ww 2  tanks the reason I came to this game, sadly arty is not implemented very well in this game 1 per team should be the max for fair play in my view, anyway in 1.0 at least the view is nice as we get :arta: on now happy tanking all :playing:

xXRainbowAssassinx #47 Posted 31 March 2018 - 09:40 AM

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View PostSir_British, on 31 March 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

 

​As a fairly new SPG player, and not one out of passion but more necessity (I want to unlock/own ALL the grindable British tier X tanks) I have to point out that sometimes I focus a player not because of their stats but because of their position and usefulness to the battle (if they are in a key positon or causing too much damage) . 

 

Yesterday on Steppes there was a Teal player in an M46 Patton who stayed on the top ridge and was sniping, he was 1: easy shoot-able (clickable?) and 2: causing havoc to our team, I didn't mange to destroy him, but I certainly made his life more difficult. It had nothing to do with his colour, more about his playstyle and how dangerous he was to my team. 

 

There are / will always bee XVM snipers, unfortunately but I feel those SPG players who are serious about helping their team gain a victory, try to help the team and not just shell an individual, Abbey, same thing, I concentrated on the lower corridor (1-2 line) because there were more tanks to aim at and only a 45.02B defending, although the Blues/Purples were trying to advance along the top corridor, we won. 

 

Priorities are the key to winning not just bombing that lone Purple player... 

 

 

 

I'm not denying any of that, XVM focus is a thing but doesn't happen all the time, and I still have relative XVM camo so it's not a huge issue for me. Problem is though when someone does decide to focus you (for whatever reason) it's so detrimental to the gameplay (how well you can use the map and terrain) and enjoyment factor it makes one honestly wonder why it's still here.

MagicalFlyingFox #48 Posted 31 March 2018 - 09:58 AM

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View PostPuggsley, on 29 March 2018 - 11:42 PM, said:

 

What is it about then? Not being facetious, I am genuinely curious.

 

But looking at those games is telling in that despite Pro doing everything to be as attractive an arty target as possible, he isn't. Crazib showed similar clips of being extremely aggressive with 2 arty and him almost sitting in the open and he was not shot at as the meme says with XVM sniping and punishing aggressive play.

 

And based on average damage and watching these guys streams these highlighted games are played in similar style to nearly all of their games. Their results show that arty cannot be that effective against them or they would not get those results. Which is why i asked for actual data. Don't just tell us its bad, show us the actual results. We ask people who have theories about MM or WR to do that, why not this claim?

 

I've been watching a lot of streamers to try to take my play to the next level and this is what I've observed.

 

1) great players mostly drive meta tanks - invariably high effective DPM (high base DPM with an accurate high pen gun), mobile and good turret armour.

2) great players (high WN8 + high WR) mostly take highly aggressive forward positions with shots into multiple areas, or shots into choke points with high numbers of tanks. This helps them get early critical damage to start the snowball effect, and spotting and assist damage. They prefer hull down spots and use their skills in amour angling to minimise damage taken. Invariably the positions which offer high damage potential are pretty exposed to arty fire.

3) great players keep the gun singing - they almost always shoot as soon as it is loaded. This means that they don't move far between shots or take what would be called the typical advice about how to minimise arty risk. They take measured risks to take guns out of the game early because it leads to the snowball.

 

Points 2 and 3 mean that very often the unicum player is the first tank spotted and keeps being spotted in order to start getting that huge damage happening. This means if the "arty targets unicums and punishes aggressive play" meme is true arty should be all over them, both from being aggressive and for having no XVM camo. But by a large margin from the streaming and games I have watched, that is not the case.

 

And from the results in terms of both WN8 and WR metric that style of hyper aggressive play is not punished overly by arty. From what I have seen it is hardly punished by arty. This is not to say that occasionally arty will get stuck into someone, but that does not happen very often. There is likely a cost due to arty by playing like that, but it is likely to be very tiny compared to the benefits. If it was a big cost then it would be impossible for the unicums to continue to be such extreme outliers in terms of WN8 and WR.

 

I will be happy to drop this view if people can provide data which shows damage and how many times unicums get punished by arty. Or have streams which show them being constantly targeted.

 

But I strongly suspect its just the arty version of the baseless whinge that WR is controlled by luck.

 

My "digitally derived" estimate (wild arsed guess) is that very few players will receive more than 1 arty shot per game. I ran the arty damage tracker mod when I started playing much more aggressively and my average was 0.4 shots per game. 

 

 

 

It is all about the enjoyment of the game, arty is completely detrimental in that regards. It is the only class that can consistently ruin your enjoyment simply because it can come out of nowhere and there is nothing you can do to avoid it, especially so if you want to actually have fun playing the game. 

 

Sure, you can camp at the back of the map, but then you will be doing literally nothing for at least 5 minutes and that is hardly what you could call 'Fun' and goes against the point of playing the game. 

View PostProloser_The_Atomistic, on 31 March 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

 

Hey puggs as MFF said those games I was able to do stuff because arty was to [edited] not to realise I should have been the priority target. I play like there is no arty in the game most times and if I get hit I just rage and get into the next game, hence why it appears I'm not worried about it. 

 

The number of times I mention it doesn't really give a good indication of my opinions or how bad it is, I'm just at the stage where I expect to get crapped upon anywhere I go and if it doesn't happen that's a bonus. There's a reason why I mention the number of arty at the start of a game.... It's so I can mentally prepare myself for the rain should it pour.

 

Keep in mind it's not how often arty focus happens that is the problem, it's when it does happen that the issues arise. Maps like Prok or Malinovka are unplayable as a top tier heavy or medium if there are more than 1 arty per team. Unless you camp you are not arty safe, because there are no arty safe positions on the more important parts of the map. As soon as you get spotted you get hit for 700 or so combined if there are 3 arty on the game, not to mention the stun.

I too play the same way with or without arty. If i get shat on, oh well. If i don't get shat on, then I'll be having a bit of fun. How often either situation is doesn't matter, the mechanic itself is just utter garbage. 

View PostProloser_The_Atomistic, on 31 March 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

 

I'm not denying any of that, XVM focus is a thing but doesn't happen all the time, and I still have relative XVM camo so it's not a huge issue for me. Problem is though when someone does decide to focus you (for whatever reason) it's so detrimental to the gameplay (how well you can use the map and terrain) and enjoyment factor it makes one honestly wonder why it's still here.

I have no XVM, and i honestly don't care too much if they are using XVM, unless its completely obvious they are targeting solely me like an AI would decide to target only me with their superweapons in command and conquer... (Curse you and your nukes solely at my construction yard. MY ALLY HAS MORE THINGS TO KILL DAMMIT, ITS JUST A LONE CONSTRUCTION YARD YOU ARE HITTING)

 

Stun mechanic is stupid, you don't even need to hit. Splash is worse. 

Indirect fire is just a crappy mechanic. If you want to punish clusters of enemies (which is now WG's justification for keeping arty in the game. This is official, this is from WG's lead game designer) it is far more superior to just not have maps that are basically parallel trenches. There was a good reason why Severogorsk was removed, and now we have at least 8 of them in the game. 

 

Basicallu puggs, you're opinion is based on the effectiveness of arty. Its effectiveness is fairly limited since it will largely affect a couple players in a given match, which is unlike playing any other class where you have map control, direct fire, actual presence and vision control which would affect a whole flank of tanks instead of just that guy and that guy only. The reason why those that are against arty is because of its impact on only a few tanks per game. Its a class that is only really countered by winning the game, not by anything else.


Edited by MagicalFlyingFox, 31 March 2018 - 10:02 AM.

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xXRainbowAssassinx #49 Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:32 AM

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Last point is the crux of the matter, there's no counter to arty unless you're looking for shell tracers, but even that is a stretch because only your arty can notice that and half the time they are just focusing heavies so I rarely witness a counter arty shot.

ThomChen114 #50 Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:40 AM

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View PostProloser_The_Atomistic, on 31 March 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Last point is the crux of the matter, there's no counter to arty unless you're looking for shell tracers, but even that is a stretch because only your arty can notice that and half the time they are just focusing heavies so I rarely witness a counter arty shot.

 

The 1.0 shell tracers do make it easier to notice where enemy artillery is, and I've gotten my first counter-battery kill a few days ago, and keenly aware of this I do try to move a few meters from where I last fired to avoid the same thing happening to me.

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Ensign_Brendoonigan #51 Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:03 AM

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I hate being focused like the next player but why you'd want them removed makes no sense to me. They're part of the game and nobody ever complains when you're fighting against a stunned opponent or an opponent who's on the back foot because of your teams Arty.

 

Do you stop and give them a break until they're no longer stunned. No you take advantage of the situation. So unless you give the other guys a break you've really got nothing to argue about. 

 

Tbh the real frustration is when there arty is really good and yours can't hit anything but then thats the same with all classes... 

 

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ThomChen114 #52 Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

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View PostEnsign_Brendoonigan, on 31 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

I hate being focused like the next player but why you'd want them removed makes no sense to me. They're part of the game and nobody ever complains when you're fighting against a stunned opponent or an opponent who's on the back foot because of your teams Arty.

 

Do you stop and give them a break until they're no longer stunned. No you take advantage of the situation. So unless you give the other guys a break you've really got nothing to argue about. 

 

Tbh the real frustration is when there arty is really good and yours can't hit anything but then thats the same with all classes... 

 

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you'd be surprised how "polite" some tomatoes are, not taking advantage of an opening and giving the opponent plenty of time to recover. yet it's also easy to be sitting back and complain when it does occur

 

i've developed a begrudging appreciation and understanding for artillery as I play it more on my "off" days


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Bounty #53 Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:25 AM

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Spoiler

 

With 3 SPG in a game you will notice their presence for sure, I get it. But in recent patches, Arty are stunning, not 1 shot killing anymore. You should be making the most of those stun situations. 


 

 


Mother_Of_All_Rommel #54 Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:32 AM

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View PostPuggsley, on 30 March 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

Ok another 20 games from Saffe

 

Averaged 1.7 arty per game - 4 x 3, 7 x 2, 7 x 1, 2 x 0

Averaged 0.4 hits per game - most was 2

Averaged 82 damage per game - including by far the biggest hit thus far 804 hp in an RU251. Amazing how little the damage usually is - he played LT for 17 of these 20 games.

 

Still early but tbo I have seen zero evidence of XVM sniping.

 

 

 

XVM sniping is a myth. Bad player got hit pretty much the same as good plyr do.. but I got hit less for sure, since sometimes, im the arty :P


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The_Salty_Brit_ #55 Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:59 AM

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View PostProloser_The_Atomistic, on 31 March 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Last point is the crux of the matter, there's no counter to arty unless you're looking for shell tracers, but even that is a stretch because only your arty can notice that and half the time they are just focusing heavies so I rarely witness a counter arty shot.

 

​That is because it takes time and luck to spot them..  If you go for counter battery and you miss them firing their shell, it might take 20.30s before they fire again, in that time you could be helping your team by attacking a lit enemy, I normally only go for counter battery when there are 2 or 3 SPGs, since the other SPG can help our team whilst I am searching for their SPG, also a lot of teams members don't ping the map to show where the enemy SPG might be. 

 

Spgs were rightly nerfed  because they could one-shot or severely damage an enemy (even on the go) and this was deemed counter productive to the game. it was more likely that players actively 'hid' from SPGs rather than fight the enemy, and therefore the tank that was supposed to stop camping actually produced it. 

 

Because of this,  WG had to find a way to compensate SPG players, since no-one would want to play them if their re-load times were too long compared to the chances of dealing damage, if the shells they fired missed more than 60% + of the time.. 

 

The stun mechanic allows SPGs players to be a part of a teams defense and attack strategy whilst giving the player some tactile feedback that they are achieving something.. If due to the current RNG/ Dispersion values the shells misses at least you have a stun, so not totally useless. 

 

Due to this, SPGs have become OP in groups when they can simultaneously shell a single player, which is most likely either the only one that is currently lit / tracked or slow moving out in the open.  There is no real or viable way to counter this effect. 

 

There is no definite solution, I would suggest alike the Tanks, that SPGs have different types of shells, Damage / Stun or  perhaps Ground effect.   If they choose a damage shell, then the alpha will be higher but negligible stun time,  same as the stun shell, lower damage but a higher stun radius, and the area of effect could be used to 'light' up previously hidden targets for a short period..  

 

So with the longer load times,  players would have to choose wisely and perhaps sometimes have the wrong shell loaded for the situation.  of course if there are 2 or more SPGs they could just use alternate shells to have both effects at once, but then they would have to co-ordinate etc.

 

Also, there are different types of tanks to suits different players, Pro likes to run fast mediums, others prefer slow heavies, TD or SPGs, so WG is trying to cater for everyone. 

 

After playing them for a few hundred battles now, I can understand why players are drawn to them, it is a lot easier to play, tactics aren't such a high part of their gameplay and there is a long period of rest between shells, also, I would like to offer the point that I rage less because my SPG shell missed than I do when my Centurion 7/1 misses, and I seem to feel better when the shell hits for damage or destroys an enemy than I do in my Centurion.. 

 

Something I didn't hink would happen.. to be honest. 


Edited by Sir_British, 31 March 2018 - 12:01 PM.

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Puggsley #56 Posted 01 April 2018 - 09:47 AM

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OMG a long reponse disapperas!!!

 


Edited by Puggsley, 01 April 2018 - 09:48 AM.


punisher007 #57 Posted 01 April 2018 - 10:00 AM

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Just reduce the damage and stun a bit, and also reduce the max arty per side, 1 or 2 max

Puggsley #58 Posted 01 April 2018 - 10:02 AM

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Yes Ezz these are random twitch channels. Got 22 hours of gameplay data and 134 games at the moment.

 

This started as a test of the battle of anecdotes about XVM sniping, arty is the devil spawn and should be removed memes.

 

In 134 games I have seen one possible instance of XVM sniping where arty chose a specific unicum to take out of the game. And that might have just been they focussed on a particular tank rather than player. I think it is bullcrap to suggest it exists other than an a tiny tiny percentage of the time, probably way less than 1%. If you think it does then put up the link to a twitch tv channel showing the occurrance. Or even better I will bet against you while you stream and give you very good odds that you get xvm sniped out of the game. 

 

Arty does punish 2 very specific ways/situations of playing which any half decent player can avoid. The good news is that how you play determines how effective arty is. It is way more nuanced than arty punishes aggressive/campy play. Well you can play aggressively and avoid arty, its a lot more difficult to do that if you chose a campy playstyle.

 

I am writing up my hypothesis about how to play to reduce arty to being nothing more than a minor inconvenience which will have minimal impact on your performance. I will send this to a couple of mods so we can fairly test the predictive powers.

 

To this end can anyone who thinks they have been targeted by arty please send me a link to the said replay. These will be categorised into the 2 categories plus any others to test the hypothesis.

 

Also anyone who has a twitch stream and is concerned about arty please give me a link so I can add that to the data set.

 

Thanks.


Edited by Puggsley, 01 April 2018 - 10:07 AM.


Ezz #59 Posted 01 April 2018 - 10:45 AM

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Do any non good players stream as they'd make a nice comparison? 

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The_Salty_Brit_ #60 Posted 01 April 2018 - 11:12 AM

    One simply does not..

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View PostEzz, on 01 April 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Do any non good players stream as they'd make a nice comparison? 

 

​Unfortunately I don't stream any more due to connection issues, but I can confirm that SPG players generally go for the easiest / softest and most valuable targets,  depending on who is playing the said tank, depends on whether you could call it XVM sniping.. 

 

Westfield, first player to be lit was a M46 Patton (blue player) since he crested the upper hill, obviously wanting to get early spots and damage, he took 2 SPG shells, then unfortunately for him, the rest of the team sorta gathered around his position,  and he took a lot of splash damage

 

When I play my Centurion 7/1 I am often the target of SPG shells because I am also mostly ridge firing so not behind rocks or hard cover, and it is a softer target, added that SPG players want to help their team win, choosing the player that is the biggest threat to the team is probably the first choice. Given that mostly blue/purples play outliers (it would seem) like the FV4005 or Patton, they are the ones that are targeted.. 

 

They also run small light tanks which are harder to hit, same as the bat chat, which if I can find standing still (unloading a clip) definitely get some SPG love from me, I would say that 'XVM' sniping is confirmation Bias, and in general it is because they play dangerous tanks in dangerous positions, Super Conqueror , for example, which for SPGs are relative easy targets, big, slow and soft. 

 

Also, as a last pointer, being able to track a Type Heavy reaps massive rewards if your team can hit them, and I would think that it is sometimes easier to Track / stun them for an SPG than a normal tank, for the assist damage. 

 

Should SPGs be changes slightly, probably, would that diminish their usefulness / playability, yes, would it change the overall gameplay, maybe, I have played battles without SPgs and have admittedly wished that there was one, in some stalemate cases where an 268-4 is holding a choke point or such occurrences. 


2 MoEs : Crusader / Firefly  / Achilles / Comet / Caernarvon / Centurion 1 

 

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