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Have you ever been targeted by Arty? Please submit your replay!


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Profanisaurus #21 Posted 03 April 2018 - 07:45 AM

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View PostJOC469, on 02 April 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

As for the OP - I have a replay where I was targeted by arty...

 

...but it was my own teams arty  :-(

 

Was it me?



CelestiaLudenberg #22 Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:04 AM

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Was my first game of the day, and was already in a less than desirable mood, needless to say this didn't help as seen with chat.

 

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Thingol #23 Posted 03 April 2018 - 10:40 AM

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If counter-battery was more viable, arty could just shoot each other and everyone else would be happy with that.

Arelius #24 Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:01 AM

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Do you mean targeted by your own Arty or by the enemy?

in the case of the later, 1) don't get spotted - good luck, 2) hug buldings, rocks, etc. 3) don't knock down trees if you are not spotted.

 

If it's your own team arty...

 

Good luck with that too. Yes there are some players who will deliberately target own team members, they exist, I have come across a few.

 

Also a lot of Arty are points greedy and don't care if they kill or even cause the team to loose so long as they got their damage score. I've been taken out by friendly fire just about to kill the last enemy many times because the Arty players want to get the last kill themselves so badly! 

 

WoT neads to get a lot harder on players using Arty and inflicting damage on own team members for sure. As it stands you could play like a complete serial phycho and just get your rocks off dumping on own members if you want to and that stinks.



Puggsley #25 Posted 03 April 2018 - 01:09 PM

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View PostMother_Of_All_Rommel, on 02 April 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

Do replays from luck based skrub accepted too? Or this just for uni?

 

For everyone.

 

Please post them!

 


Edited by Puggsley, 03 April 2018 - 01:12 PM.


Puggsley #26 Posted 03 April 2018 - 01:12 PM

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View Post_Rune, on 02 April 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

biggest issue is when you start getting perma stunned and basically spend the next 4 minutes not moving, not shooting or actually playing the game (oh thanks I am having a great time and its lots of fun) all it takes is for you to be a heavy tank and push a line or position yourself (semi arty safe) to hold back an advance, then get perma stunned and focused by 3 arty!!

 

Meanwhile your arty on your team are shooting at light tanks and wasting the whole game not counter battery or stopping their advance.. zzzz

 

also XVM is a real thing.. some of the worst red/orange players use it and do focus better players its just fact.... remove it from the game to stop these red arty players knowing straight away who to hold shots for all game.

 

That is exactly the replays I'm after. And the ones which are impossible to find and people will not post.

 

C'mon buddy, please please please post em!!!

 

 

 



_Rune #27 Posted 03 April 2018 - 01:53 PM

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Simple solution - Make the arty light up on the Map when they fire (like they have been spotted) that would sort them out.

 

Problem with arty is that its no risk and all the reward.. point, click, move, profit!

 

 


 

 


FramFramson #28 Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:05 PM

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I just got one-shotted for 1650 by a Death Star. Does that count?

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Conan #29 Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:30 PM

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As a player who plays arty quite regularly. A few things:

  • Being spotted is one of the biggest things that gets you targeted.
  • Being aggressive will get you targeted because you are a threat to my team.
  • Being slow will get you targeted because you're easier to hit.
  • Being the heavy will get you targeted because you're the biggest threat I can see.
  • If you're in an arty safe position, I will ignore you, but if you show an inch that I know I can hit, I will shoot and probably splash you.
  • If you move a lot and there are other targets on the map, I will probably target you last.
  • I hold of my shots for things I can hit.
  • Yes, I get lucky with moving targets but it is based on gut feeling and some bad maths in my brain. If I hit you, lucky me, sorry about you.
  • Counter Battery is a thing but it needs a lot of skill to do correctly. 
  • Every time I "click" I lose camo and potentially expose myself to scouts. I also expose myself to counter battery fire.
  • You have no idea what it feels like when you're alone in the back and you know the lights are coming for you.

 

Playing arty properly requires a lot of awareness, thread assessment skills, maths that I don't even have, and experience. I know players who are so much better than me in playing arty properly. I know someone who can hit scouts hauling ass with a Conqueror GC. 

Maybe you should try playing arty. It's probably because I have been in both sides of the muzzle of arty that I understand how it works. It's not as easy as people think. If I get shot by arty, it's probably because I was doing something unsafe or stupid or I was playing really well that I was the highest threat. Or simply, I was the easiest to hit. 

The moment you stop thinking the world is after you; the moment you accept that life is unfair; the moment you accept that you win some, you lose some, that is the time you will start enjoying games a little bit more and find a way to self improvement.

That doesn't say I do not throw things at my screen :P  

 


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MagicalFlyingFox #30 Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:52 PM

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View PostPuggsley, on 03 April 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

 

That is exactly the replays I'm after. And the ones which are impossible to find and people will not post.

 

C'mon buddy, please please please post em!!!

 

 

 

 

If/when that happens to me, I'd prefer to forget about it than remember it. 

 

Its not what the game should be about, why would i want to remember something that reduces my enjoyment of the game? 


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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Ezz #31 Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:55 PM

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To be honest i think the main thing really worth investigating is the frequency of arty focus of goods vs average players. I don't think anyone would argue that focus doesn't happen, but it's how much the xvm effect actually equates to that would be interesting.

Edited by Ezz, 03 April 2018 - 03:05 PM.

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Puggsley #32 Posted 03 April 2018 - 03:02 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 03 April 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

 

If/when that happens to me, I'd prefer to forget about it than remember it. 

 

Its not what the game should be about, why would i want to remember something that reduces my enjoyment of the game? 

 

What i'm trying to do is understand how arty actually works and then work out how to counter it. I could [edited] about it, or I can try to understand what is actually happening.

 

From the data there are 2 specific times arty does its damage (I am very confident of this). I'm after replays to test this before I publish what they are. The Yeti unicums I have been watching are only sometimes affected by one. They mostly make a very small adjustment to what normal pubbies do to vastly reduce arty impact. The other affects them only extremely rarely because they don't generally play a campy style.The rest of the time arty is nothing more than a very minor nuisance.

 

I know that there are a lot of people who have strong feelings on this but I am basing this on data of what has actually happened, not what people feel. That's why I'm after replays, not just stories.  



stewiejp #33 Posted 03 April 2018 - 03:06 PM

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View PostConan, on 03 April 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

  • Being spotted is one of the biggest things that gets you targeted.
  • Being aggressive will get you targeted because you are a threat to my team.
  • Being slow will get you targeted because you're easier to hit.
  • Being the heavy will get you targeted because you're the biggest threat I can see.

 

No. If you are targeting me then you are clearly stream sniping or your xvm focus is broken cos surely there is someone on the team better than me. :izmena:

 

View PostEzz, on 03 April 2018 - 04:55 PM, said:

To be honest i think the main thing really worth investigating is the frequency of arty focus of goods vs average players. I don't think anyone would argue that focus happens, but it's how much the xvm effect actually equates to that would be interesting.

 

"Pro" arty players that I speak with are divided on the issue - "XVM focus?" Sure, most who run it will if possible but as far as I can tell opinions differ in how long to wait until the "gud" player on the enemy team exposes himself or stops moving long enough to get shelled vs. shooting the tanks which are lit and may be slower and guaranteed damage/kills (ie - shoot the lit, slow heavies, or wait for the blurples in mediums which may be harder to hit). 


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Ezz #34 Posted 03 April 2018 - 03:16 PM

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View Poststewiejp, on 03 April 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

"Pro" arty players that I speak with are divided on the issue - "XVM focus?" Sure, most who run it will if possible but as far as I can tell opinions differ in how long to wait until the "gud" player on the enemy team exposes himself or stops moving long enough to get shelled vs. shooting the tanks which are lit and may be slower and guaranteed damage/kills (ie - shoot the lit, slow heavies, or wait for the blurples in mediums which may be harder to hit). 

There's no doubt that XVM focus exists. However the bit i'm curious about is how over-reported it is. Things like XVM telling you who is running XVM is an easy way to dispel this. And from the other side of the coin i recall after a patch a while back while rips was being apathetic i ran for a while without XVM. A fellow managed to get rather salty at me for focusing him due to his stats. But as has been noted a few times, most of the time you'll just shoot whoever you can.


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SaltyBob_ #35 Posted 03 April 2018 - 03:22 PM

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I am pretty sure when arty hits me they were aiming for me .. and not the LT 400 metres away    :P

Puggsley #36 Posted 03 April 2018 - 03:26 PM

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View PostEzz, on 03 April 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

To be honest i think the main thing really worth investigating is the frequency of arty focus of goods vs average players. I don't think anyone would argue that focus happens, but it's how much the xvm effect actually equates to that would be interesting.

 

How to show this is one of the issues I have been grappling with. Usually pubbies don't stream so you cannot get a long run of games which better represent what usually happens.

 

So how I have approached it is to watch unicums to see how and when they take their damage from arty. Are they focused?

 

By which I mean they are selected out of a bunch of targets by arty. I have included pretty much all games but I have taken a note of if they are the last 3 tanks left on the team as that is not really being targeted because of who you are, just that you are the last few targets and there is no choice about who arty will shoot at. I have not attempted to say that a player is the only lit target and so that is not XVM targetting - only if you are in the last 3 tanks alive on your team.

 

From the random streams the answer is they are targeted extremely infrequently (way less than 1% of their games). What is obvious is that when they play in a choke point with little arty coverage they sometimes get hit, but arty is shifting focus to shoot at all the tanks in that area. You see this because they timing of each arty strike from each arty clearly shows they are not shooting over and over at the same target. Some of them have figured out how to play very close to these areas and rarely get shot (Val is very good at this). 

 

Its also very clear that arty does nearly all its serious damage in 2 pretty specific scenarios. Its not a aggressive/camping breakup, its a lot more nuanced. A certain style of aggression is punished, while camping is punished at a certain situation in the game. Other than this its pretty much nuisance value. Watching crazib really crystallised this in his mammoth WZ120FT 7 hour stream. Overall unicums don't play either of these ways very much (well the Yeti guys at least). 

 

I want to test this by looking at random replays where arty punishes people and see if they are playing those 2 styles (or something else - in which case the theory is less valid).

 

I suspect that arty will actually punish pubbie play a lot more as they are certainly more likely to camp, and much more likely to play the required aggression style. But I don't know and am keen to find out! 

 

I have a feeling that if you have a very high WN8 compared to WR ratio then you are much more likely to complain about arty because you play a more campy style (which will certainly be punished).



OzzieRoo #37 Posted 03 April 2018 - 05:53 PM

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View PostConan, on 03 April 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

As a player who plays arty quite regularly. A few things:

  • Being spotted is one of the biggest things that gets you targeted.
  • Being aggressive will get you targeted because you are a threat to my team.
  • Being slow will get you targeted because you're easier to hit.
  • Being the heavy will get you targeted because you're the biggest threat I can see.
  • If you're in an arty safe position, I will ignore you, but if you show an inch that I know I can hit, I will shoot and probably splash you.
  • If you move a lot and there are other targets on the map, I will probably target you last.
  • I hold of my shots for things I can hit.
  • Yes, I get lucky with moving targets but it is based on gut feeling and some bad maths in my brain. If I hit you, lucky me, sorry about you.
  • Counter Battery is a thing but it needs a lot of skill to do correctly. 
  • Every time I "click" I lose camo and potentially expose myself to scouts. I also expose myself to counter battery fire.
  • You have no idea what it feels like when you're alone in the back and you know the lights are coming for you.

 

Playing arty properly requires a lot of awareness, thread assessment skills, maths that I don't even have, and experience. I know players who are so much better than me in playing arty properly. I know someone who can hit scouts hauling [edited] with a Conqueror GC. 

Maybe you should try playing arty. It's probably because I have been in both sides of the muzzle of arty that I understand how it works. It's not as easy as people think. If I get shot by arty, it's probably because I was doing something unsafe or stupid or I was playing really well that I was the highest threat. Or simply, I was the easiest to hit. 

The moment you stop thinking the world is after you; the moment you accept that life is unfair; the moment you accept that you win some, you lose some, that is the time you will start enjoying games a little bit more and find a way to self improvement.

That doesn't say I do not throw things at my screen :P  

 

Yep sums it up nicely, I've never used any mod. I don't really care what win rate an enemy tank is, if its where I don't like it for the good of my team, I'll target it.
​Mod targeting would happen from any tank using mods not primarily Arty, that's exactly what many people tell you they want Mods for, if they XVM target in their TD, they are going to do it in their HT and Arty too.
​Arty players could send replays of arty targeting players who have zero arty awareness, the ones who camp behind a rock, ignoring a near miss and then let us splash them to death with 8 more shells in a row at 18 second intervals. I just checked and the only 2 replays I have in 1.0 are crap 4 minute losses in FV304.

Maybe I unfairly targeted the VK100 parked on our cap when I put 33 shells into it using a FV304 because it wouldn't move, it wasn't even lit up for half of them and half my shells did nothing, not even a critical. If our Skorpion hadn't killed him I would have run out of ammo.
​Then there's the Maus that drives up the centre open field alone at game start and dies in first minute, unfairly targeted by a whole team.
​The 5 for one arty splash special when 5 tanks all bump and jostle each other camping in one spot behind a corner instead of pushing or flanking because there's one AT15 around the corner..
​And its not like people rush full speed into those yellow circles on the ground to ram a 70% health O-I in a 30% Cromwell 2 seconds after arty fires, then whine about greedy arty.
​Of course good players in other tanks never accidently shoot team mates, probably because they use chat spamming mods to avoid doing so.
​Anytime I hit a moving LT, its because I had nothing else to shoot at and its 50% luck, I tend to think more about where a tank is going to stop, hide, turn or go uphill and aim my shell there rather than hit it on the run. And I've bounced Lorr 155 shells off T37s anyway, the days of guaranteed one shot kills of LTs are over, flat out even tracking them now.
​Without good spotting arty is near useless, I've had plenty of games where I've not fired a shell for minutes because there's nothing to shoot at.
​And good players hull down from arty on the back of ridges and keep moving so arty have only 50% targeting circle on their turret. Why waste 4 shells missing or doing nothing when there is a MT hiding behind a rock I can splash to death who then whines that I'm targeting them instead of that IS7.
​If a push of HTs is steam rolling aggressively and I can see my team isn't going to hold, I sure will target them to slow them down, especially if they are bunched neatly for 3 for 1 splash specials. Somethimes even if I can just scare them into stopping and hiding.
​I'll aim to hit the IS3 to do maximum damage (sounds greedy doesn't it) and hopefully track/critical the Maus or Tier 9 next to him with the splash, because seriously Maus can bounce 210mm HE from above. Or hitting the middle tank gets 3 for 1, not just because he's a lower tier and less Armor / HP. Often I'd rather do serious damage to the smaller targets supporting the Maus than putting 8 shells into it totalling 300 damage.
Arty doesn't have accuracy to aim for those little gunners ports or commanders hatches like other tanks, its pure luck if we do on a moving tank from 3 seconds flight time away.
​Considering some arty with a 40second reload only get to fire 4 times in a 4 minute battle they are hardly a tipping point for the team. In a good 10min battle I still might only get to fire a dozen times so I want to keep firing as often as possible. And sometimes I might hit unspotted tanks by drop shells in bushes and behind rocks if there's nothing else to shoot.​ I will get bored of aiming for a tank if it stays out of splash range for more than half a reload so will look for other targets.

And considering half the time someone has pinged the map telling me enemy arty are at XY, they turn out to be completely wrong and I waste 2 shells time looking for the enemy arty. I rarely bother to counter arty when I could be unfairly targeting the enemy HT and doing real damage instead.

Really If arty was so OP, every Clan Wars team would be using them and I could have a reasonable win rate thingy to poast about.

Arty's been in the game since early days, WOT is the best Arty game ever made since that one on Apple 2E with a black powder field cannons on each side of the hill :) 

People wanting arty removed got better chance of asking World of Warcraft to remove Mages because they don't use same gameplay as Warriors. Perhaps ​If people want to play Maus vs Maus on flat open fields they should try a different game.
​And if they did get arty removed congratulations, they might just get 10-20% less players in WOT, that should do wonders for off peak battle queue waiting times. Then they can worry about getting unfair targeting TDs removed.

 

​And Blacklists, if they are enemy and a good target, then they probably deserve it, but its just extra cream desert, not the main course. Most of my Blocklist are just 9yo mentality or map/chat spammers that I never want to listen to again.
​I see smart enemies that wait for my missed splash and then come out and spot or fire knowing they have 18 seconds of time before I reload. I also deliberately wait for those players sometimes when they come out after our other arty fires at them. I will try hit them when they are the furthest out of cover for my team mates to hit while they are tracked if they are predictable.
​I also see good players who see and acknowledge I am targeting and wait for me to stun/damage an enemy so they can deliver the killing blow. The lone tank on one flank who is on 5% health and instead of dying rushing a equal tier 80% opponent just spots them and waits for 5 arty shells to kill it, then spots the TD behind it for the same treatment. Or the tier 6 LT that just keeps tracking a tier 8 MT in the open for arty to do maximum damage. Sometimes other arty players seem to be following my targeting too, maybe they see some sort of stats or something they like or just don't know where to shoot, so that means a possible triple hit for someone.
​Maybe I need replays to prove it, but I've long suspected enemy LTs and MTs unfairly target spotted Arty just because Arty are easy kills. When I do play other tanks I rarely experience anything like unfair arty targeting, probably because I know where I am a target.
​Either whine salty tears or take this as a lesson how many arty play, better yet, know thy enemy and try playing it to at least tier 6. Or good luck dobbing us into the teachers for unfairly targeting enemy team tanks :P


Edited by OzzieRoo, 05 April 2018 - 06:04 AM.

 

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neokai #38 Posted 03 April 2018 - 06:35 PM

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So folks need to remember 1 thing - this is a an actual scientific inquiry.

 

The OP is asking for replays because he's genuinely curious and has a system to break down replays to determine if arty focus is a thing.To achieve the stated goal folks from any WN8 are welcome to submit replays so proper A-B comparisons can be made. Low-mid-high tier battles are also welcome, so we can do secondary analysis to see if battle tiers influence arty behaviour. As with any systemic comparison, more replays makes for better data. So please, just remember to save these replays, for Science.

 

 

Edit: Pinning thread while the experiment/survey is running.


Edited by neokai, 03 April 2018 - 06:46 PM.

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neokai #39 Posted 03 April 2018 - 06:36 PM

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View PostEzz, on 03 April 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

To be honest i think the main thing really worth investigating is the frequency of arty focus of goods vs average players. I don't think anyone would argue that focus doesn't happen, but it's how much the xvm effect actually equates to that would be interesting.

 

^^ This, in a nutshell. Thus far there is only 1 replay in the thread. I had a few games over the past day where I felt I was arty focused, but it's lost in the general mess. Gonna make an effort now to set them aside.
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Russian_The_Agnostic #40 Posted 04 April 2018 - 05:35 AM

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i personally have never seen an arty focus me, maybe it's cause if you think an arty is focusing me i would play the game differently but whenever i get hit by arty its just a 

**** arty and move on. As soon as you start thinking this arty is gonna focus me it'll affect your gameplay 






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