Jump to content


Let's try this again...


  • Please log in to reply
68 replies to this topic

FramFramson #1 Posted 09 April 2018 - 05:31 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

So in my last, late, lamented desperation thread, I was repeatedly told to upload replays, but when I finally did no one ever watched them for whatever reason... maybe everyone figured I never would and just ignored the thread, maybe I uploaded too many, maybe no one had time. I dunno. Now the big update has come and those replays are unwatchable unless you want to roll back your client just to watch a couple of replays on maps that don't exist anymore - kinda pointless!

 

Yeah, I might be a little salty that I went to all the effort of following everyone's advice, taking time to do an analysis and posting it all up only for it to go nowhere.

 

Anyway forget it. Let's try this again. This time just one game. This was obviously a terrible game, with my only getting off one shot and then getting stupid after the 121 told me off 'cause I knew by then we were gonna win and I had done literally nothing to contribute (and he never did say what he would have done in my place...).

 

So here's replay #9: http://wotreplays.eu/site/4285821#serene_coast-framframson-stb-1

 

My -10 dep vs their -10 dep and whoever crests loses due to both sides having TD backup (you can see early where I do mange to bait the Patton in, unfortunately our 4005 missed him completely). Plus their turrets were better than mine (or at least in more favourable angles).

 

You can see me constantly moving back and forth trying to find an angle somewhere, ANYWHERE. So what the hell should I have done to successfully deal damage on that ridge? Obviously others were able to do it - why not me? What was I missing?


LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


Sir_Direkin #2 Posted 09 April 2018 - 05:41 AM

    Purveyor of Salt

  • Member
  • 10607 battles
  • 1,176
  • Member since:
    12-16-2016
Only marginally related to this thread, but are people more likely to watch replays if it has been recorded and uploaded to YouTube, and ultimately embedded in the forum?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCumyqpRUeOPCy1RcKXl96VA

2nd MoE: A15 Crusader, AMX 12t, KV-85, M6 Heavy, M24 Chaffee, T-34, T-50, T1 Heavy, VK 16.02 Leopard


The_Salty_Brit_ #3 Posted 09 April 2018 - 06:12 AM

    One simply does not..

  • Member
  • 14993 battles
  • 1,408
  • Member since:
    08-12-2015

Well ok then.. 

 

Firstly, I understand there may be extra costs involved but if you are going to play on the SG server, I would look into using WTFast or a VPN to try to reduce your ping from that terrible 240 +  to around 150ms if possible. 

 

Secondly, Stop spending so much time in the sniper view when you can't actually see the enemy tank, it blinds you as to what is going on and makes hitting the target even more difficult. it might be a difficult transition but you should try to change from scroll -> snipe to click -> snipe instead. 

 

Thirdly , you waste too much time 'looking' around at targets you can't actually hit, the T69 for example, if you had checked your mini-map you would have noticed he was too far away,  this trait caused you to take the first hit (ammo racked) from the Cent 7/1.- 

 

Lastly, you spend way too much time driving aimlessly around, if you had kept a better position  (there were no spgs!) you could have watched the 430 and 7/1 to see when they had fired and then gone for that ridge poke shot, ok there were TDs behind but you might have made a few more damaging hits .. 

 

Overall, you could have dropped down into the bowl and tried to flank or relocated once the Bat Chat and T54 lwt had moved through, or even ran with them.. You spend too much time scurrying around without doing anything effective.  

 

I get the ping doesn't help..  but only you can help yourself with that problem. 

 

If you check out Proposer's New Player thread, he states what free software he uses to render his YouTube videos. 

 

sorry, but the replay doesn't really show much more, oh and try not to allow yourself to be so salty, let them whinge and moan.. 

 

 

 

 


2 MoEs : Crusader / Firefly  / Achilles / Comet / Caernarvon / Centurion 1 

 

Spoiler

 


FramFramson #4 Posted 09 April 2018 - 06:22 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

That's more zoom in than I usually use. I was zoomed in so much because I was trying to catch tiny little slim shots.

 

They had 3-4 tanks overlooking the bowl and we had no real push going on through it... I'm not sure that would have been wise?

 

I already explained why I was driving around endlessly... that's a symptom, not the disease.

 

Also I'm in Toronto. VPNs will not allow me to break the speed of light. My ping's not going to improve because my routing's already actually pretty good. This has already been mentioned to death.

 

 


LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


FramFramson #5 Posted 09 April 2018 - 06:23 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

View PostSir_Direkin, on 09 April 2018 - 05:41 AM, said:

Only marginally related to this thread, but are people more likely to watch replays if it has been recorded and uploaded to YouTube, and ultimately embedded in the forum?

 

I don't know, but my old CPU can handle playing tonks. It's not so happy about trying to run recording software at the same time. Plus I find replays are just much better since you can free look, etc.

LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


neokai #6 Posted 09 April 2018 - 07:04 AM

    hunts pixels from red line

  • Senior Moderator
  • 38816 battles
  • 8,170
  • Member since:
    06-07-2013

View PostSir_Direkin, on 09 April 2018 - 05:41 AM, said:

Only marginally related to this thread, but are people more likely to watch replays if it has been recorded and uploaded to YouTube, and ultimately embedded in the forum?

 

Yes for me. Less effort to open the replay. But I generally do reviews/analysis on my time (witness my own thread)...
Spoiler

The_Salty_Brit_ #7 Posted 09 April 2018 - 12:03 PM

    One simply does not..

  • Member
  • 14993 battles
  • 1,408
  • Member since:
    08-12-2015

View PostFramFramson, on 09 April 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

That's more zoom in than I usually use. I was zoomed in so much because I was trying to catch tiny little slim shots.

 

They had 3-4 tanks overlooking the bowl and we had no real push going on through it... I'm not sure that would have been wise?

 

I already explained why I was driving around endlessly... that's a symptom, not the disease.

 

Also I'm in Toronto. VPNs will not allow me to break the speed of light. My ping's not going to improve because my routing's already actually pretty good. This has already been mentioned to death.

 

 

 

 

1: yet they managed to cause damage where you didn't ...

2: I explained, you should have sat in a position and crested when you thought you could have dealt damage, there was no danger from arty shells.. 

 

Ask for players to watch the replay (spend time) don't like the replies, gets salty, wonders why players don't bother watching or replying.. 

 

here is a replay for you: 

 

http://wotreplays.eu/site/4286170?secret=92b3272717028c1ac4e931a1a30f302b

 

Sorry I don't have one from the Canada Map. 

 

just see how I do it, there is no arty, and I just crest : click-  8x snipe-scope -> shoot-   Also the distance I am from my tank in normal view allows me to see better what the enemy are doing.. 

 

I am not the best player and if you would just prefer Purples to reply, then mention it in your post! 

 


2 MoEs : Crusader / Firefly  / Achilles / Comet / Caernarvon / Centurion 1 

 

Spoiler

 


FramFramson #8 Posted 09 April 2018 - 01:23 PM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

... I already explained that I was trying to do exactly what you think I was supposed to do, but funny enough the enemy didn't just drive up into my gun. I do not feel that sitting on one spot waiting for the enemy to suddenly start playing a lot stupider than they have up to that point would have achieved much more.

 

I mean... you watched the replay, right. Do you think I WASN'T trying to crest when I thought I had shots? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion so feel free to explain.

 

Also, what are you even replying to with

 

Block Quote

 1: yet they managed to cause damage where you didn't ...

 

Do you mean the cresting? Well that's what we're trying to talk about! I'm not sure why that would need to be repeated. Or do you mean being in the bowl... which tanks were there doing damage during the first part of that battle? IIRC, it was the enemy who tried a push through the middle (and were punished). Or maybe you're talking about something else?

 

You know what, let's just say that the more opinions I get, the better.

 


Edited by FramFramson, 09 April 2018 - 01:30 PM.

LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


The_Salty_Brit_ #9 Posted 09 April 2018 - 08:18 PM

    One simply does not..

  • Member
  • 14993 battles
  • 1,408
  • Member since:
    08-12-2015

View PostFramFramson, on 09 April 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

... I already explained that I was trying to do exactly what you think I was supposed to do, but funny enough the enemy didn't just drive up into my gun. I do not feel that sitting on one spot waiting for the enemy to suddenly start playing a lot stupider than they have up to that point would have achieved much more.

 

I mean... you watched the replay, right. Do you think I WASN'T trying to crest when I thought I had shots? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion so feel free to explain.

 

Also, what are you even replying to with

 

 

Do you mean the cresting? Well that's what we're trying to talk about! I'm not sure why that would need to be repeated. Or do you mean being in the bowl... which tanks were there doing damage during the first part of that battle? IIRC, it was the enemy who tried a push through the middle (and were punished). Or maybe you're talking about something else?

 

You know what, let's just say that the more opinions I get, the better.

 

 

​It is a difficult one, my thoughts are that you should have gone to the far right , where your gun depression would have been easier to use, there wasn't a danger from arty shells, so you could have sat there and just waited for the right moment.. 

 

I really don't know what else you expect players to suggest, considering the replay,  re-locate?? 

 

Maybe post a different one, conclusion for the last one: You couldn't find an adequate spot from which to deal damage.. 


2 MoEs : Crusader / Firefly  / Achilles / Comet / Caernarvon / Centurion 1 

 

Spoiler

 


ThomChen114 #10 Posted 10 April 2018 - 12:26 AM

    Captain

  • Beta-Tester
  • 35190 battles
  • 1,147
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

Okay, so I watched the replay twice now

 

You got a good early shot off, but then you gave ground since none of the other MTs with you could ridge fight as well as the approaching M48. And so it became the case of you trying to shoot up at a lot of MTs that are shooting down at you with their tough turret front.

 

In the case of the STB-1, i've come to terms with how it is just not cut out for sniping for weak points just as it's not the most reliable for sniping at long range. You seem to turn your attention to the enemy T49 by the railroad tracks, twice, during the battle. The second time cost you as it gave the enemy Centurion 7/1 ample time to pop a shot into you. What made it worse was how far you were zoomed in as you were turning the turret. This meant you had no idea how exposed you were, how little the Centurion had exposed himself and you were struggling to get your sights on target which by then it was too late.

 

Then the 121 told you off. I'm guessing after the taking that hit from the Centurion 7/1 and not having done any more damage since the opening shot must be frustrating, and the 121's comment was the straw that broke the camel's back (or the pine cone that broke the moose's back? idk, what do you make your mooses carry?). And so you kinda went auto reverse as you began to fire back in chat, all the while the battle was still raging on. I could see you hesitate, already discouraged and disgruntled, and I'm guessing you didn't want to poke any further due to the T30 and WZ-120 behind those MTs.

 

But then you decide to charge in through the right, and once again you were zoomed in unnecessarily far, unaware at how far you'd exposed yourself. Sure the T30 hit was probably inevitable and a risk to take at were you got shot at, but you were then ended by the Obj 430 as you tried to land a final hit on the Centurion 7/1.

On the flats, the STB-1 turret isn't that tough. It's well sloped but from that angle where your ticket got punched, you were basically a Leopard I.

 

I would suggest to just bug out of there. The 121 and 430, along with all those TDs behind you guys, could've easily held back the M48, Centurion and 430. In theory, that area should've been perfect for you, but as you found out the hard way theory doesn't last long against superior American and British steel.

 

Perhaps you could've gone hunting for that T49, perhaps you could've made your way down the center, supporting either flanks or etc etc.

 

tl;dr Don't zoom in so much in the STB-1, tactical retreat/withdrawals relocation are acceptable doctrine and will not result in execution by the superior officer.

 

PS do you have the replay of that Sand River battle were I ran into you on my team in my Badger? I was in a net cafe at the time and forgot to save the replay.

 

 

 


Edited by ThomChen114, 10 April 2018 - 12:27 AM.

Owned Tier 10s: Obj 907, IS-7, Obj 140, M60, M48A5 Patton, STB-1, WZ-111 5A, 113, Centurion Action X, Super Conqueror, Badger


SaltyBob_ #11 Posted 10 April 2018 - 12:53 AM

    Major

  • Beta-Tester
  • 44017 battles
  • 2,528
  • [-2AR-] -2AR-
  • Member since:
    09-15-2012

Geez I thought you were in Oz ....... Do you play NA still ?

 

I am not skilled enough to offer sound advice .. but I do suggest watching zeven_NA on twitch ...... He's been rather busy lately with work so his sessions are few and far between ... plenty of Replays there ... when he does get regular he does a review segment.

 

 

:honoring:



FramFramson #12 Posted 10 April 2018 - 01:58 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

View PostThomChen114, on 10 April 2018 - 12:26 AM, said:

Okay, so I watched the replay twice now

 

You got a good early shot off, but then you gave ground since none of the other MTs with you could ridge fight as well as the approaching M48. And so it became the case of you trying to shoot up at a lot of MTs that are shooting down at you with their tough turret front.

 

In the case of the STB-1, i've come to terms with how it is just not cut out for sniping for weak points just as it's not the most reliable for sniping at long range. You seem to turn your attention to the enemy T49 by the railroad tracks, twice, during the battle. The second time cost you as it gave the enemy Centurion 7/1 ample time to pop a shot into you. What made it worse was how far you were zoomed in as you were turning the turret. This meant you had no idea how exposed you were, how little the Centurion had exposed himself and you were struggling to get your sights on target which by then it was too late.

 

Then the 121 told you off. I'm guessing after the taking that hit from the Centurion 7/1 and not having done any more damage since the opening shot must be frustrating, and the 121's comment was the straw that broke the camel's back (or the pine cone that broke the moose's back? idk, what do you make your mooses carry?). And so you kinda went auto reverse as you began to fire back in chat, all the while the battle was still raging on. I could see you hesitate, already discouraged and disgruntled, and I'm guessing you didn't want to poke any further due to the T30 and WZ-120 behind those MTs.

 

But then you decide to charge in through the right, and once again you were zoomed in unnecessarily far, unaware at how far you'd exposed yourself. Sure the T30 hit was probably inevitable and a risk to take at were you got shot at, but you were then ended by the Obj 430 as you tried to land a final hit on the Centurion 7/1.

On the flats, the STB-1 turret isn't that tough. It's well sloped but from that angle where your ticket got punched, you were basically a Leopard I.

 

I would suggest to just bug out of there. The 121 and 430, along with all those TDs behind you guys, could've easily held back the M48, Centurion and 430. In theory, that area should've been perfect for you, but as you found out the hard way theory doesn't last long against superior American and British steel.

 

Perhaps you could've gone hunting for that T49, perhaps you could've made your way down the center, supporting either flanks or etc etc.

 

tl;dr Don't zoom in so much in the STB-1, tactical retreat/withdrawals relocation are acceptable doctrine and will not result in execution by the superior officer.

 

PS do you have the replay of that Sand River battle were I ran into you on my team in my Badger? I was in a net cafe at the time and forgot to save the replay.

 

 

 

 

I didn't save it deliberately, BUT, I think it was the last battle I fought yesterday, so I will check when I'm back at my computer!

 

I mentioned about the over-zooming being the product of trying to shoot little bits of exposed hull. What I'm really wondering is if there was any way for me to productively ridge brawl in that situation at all (and if so, how), or if I should have bugged out for another flank as soon as I saw all those tough turrets with gun dep equal to mine? (or that they weren't stupid enough to allow me any shots)


Edited by FramFramson, 10 April 2018 - 02:08 AM.

LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


FramFramson #13 Posted 10 April 2018 - 02:09 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

View PostEnglishBob, on 10 April 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

Geez I thought you were in Oz ....... Do you play NA still ?

 

Still in Toronto! Doubt that'll change anytime soon. 250 ping erryday! I've never actually played on the NA server... I'm kind of afraid to! If I get used to the shorter ping, it might make me even crankier when having to play on SEA!


Edited by FramFramson, 10 April 2018 - 02:10 AM.

LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


FramFramson #14 Posted 10 April 2018 - 04:38 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

Looks like you're in luck: http://wotreplays.eu/site/4287374#sand_river-framframson-stb-1

 

Kind of a mediocre game from me? Not too bad, got some kills and did my HP in damage, I wasn't paying as much attention as I might've because of talking to two people, lol. Also, given I was platted with a fellow who turned out to be driving the same tank as me but with 3 MoE I just kind followed along.

 

I'll apologize on SeeSharp's behalf by the way, - it wasn't his fault he didn't get much damage in... he was having computer trouble all of a sudden and his FPS dropped to like 10-15.


LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


The_Goblin_King #15 Posted 10 April 2018 - 06:33 AM

    Corporal

  • Member
  • 50773 battles
  • 58
  • [DREAM] DREAM
  • Member since:
    10-27-2017
Do you know that you can change in and out of zoom mode by clicking on shift rather than the scroll wheel? This means you can instantly go in and out of zoom and might help with maintaining wider perspective and snapping in to hit precision shots when needed.

ThomChen114 #16 Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:28 AM

    Captain

  • Beta-Tester
  • 35190 battles
  • 1,147
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View PostThe_Goblin_King, on 10 April 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

Do you know that you can change in and out of zoom mode by clicking on shift rather than the scroll wheel? This means you can instantly go in and out of zoom and might help with maintaining wider perspective and snapping in to hit precision shots when needed.

 

​shhh, that's classified info. don't make me get the commissar mods!

Owned Tier 10s: Obj 907, IS-7, Obj 140, M60, M48A5 Patton, STB-1, WZ-111 5A, 113, Centurion Action X, Super Conqueror, Badger


ThomChen114 #17 Posted 10 April 2018 - 10:03 AM

    Captain

  • Beta-Tester
  • 35190 battles
  • 1,147
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View PostFramFramson, on 10 April 2018 - 04:38 AM, said:

Looks like you're in luck: http://wotreplays.eu/site/4287374#sand_river-framframson-stb-1

 

Kind of a mediocre game from me? Not too bad, got some kills and did my HP in damage, I wasn't paying as much attention as I might've because of talking to two people, lol. Also, given I was platted with a fellow who turned out to be driving the same tank as me but with 3 MoE I just kind followed along.

 

I'll apologize on SeeSharp's behalf by the way, - it wasn't his fault he didn't get much damage in... he was having computer trouble all of a sudden and his FPS dropped to like 10-15.

 

cheers fam

 

you guys did alright, pushing in up to there from the north was the right move, but it looked like you guys struggled against those enemy base defenders who had the high ground. but it did put some pressure on the enemy to have to face two flanks at the same time, it's just a shame i couldn't be more of a help than i could've.

 

it was an okay game for me, it was a risk going up there but it turned out to be right call (by my plat mate noble who asked me to snipe from top), since i could better hide my LFP and had plenty of targets to choose from rather than being forced into dry river corridor meat grinder (and with nothing to show for it like the IS-7). i'm still not as experienced in the Badger as I'd like to be, but the 123mm gun for the most part works fine, just not in the same blistering rate as the Tortoise with its 120mm gun. And the shell travel time takes some getting used to (though i may be spoiled by the Strv APCR light speed)

 

View PostFramFramson, on 10 April 2018 - 01:58 AM, said:

I mentioned about the over-zooming being the product of trying to shoot little bits of exposed hull. What I'm really wondering is if there was any way for me to productively ridge brawl in that situation at all (and if so, how), or if I should have bugged out for another flank as soon as I saw all those tough turrets with gun dep equal to mine? (or that they weren't stupid enough to allow me any shots)

 

unless those TDs behind you had closed in and joined you guys there, the other MTs don't have the same gun dep that you have to compete against an M48. But they do have tougher raw armor on the turret, and they would lurch forward after the enemy MTs had fired to try to get a hit. 

 

as i've said occasionally, the STB-1 is no good for hitting weakspots at any range, especially against moving targets. You either load the HEAT and go through the cheeks of those turrets, risk it and go for the hulls or relocate to somewhere else. 


Owned Tier 10s: Obj 907, IS-7, Obj 140, M60, M48A5 Patton, STB-1, WZ-111 5A, 113, Centurion Action X, Super Conqueror, Badger


FramFramson #18 Posted 10 April 2018 - 10:59 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

View PostThe_Goblin_King, on 10 April 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

Do you know that you can change in and out of zoom mode by clicking on shift rather than the scroll wheel? This means you can instantly go in and out of zoom and might help with maintaining wider perspective and snapping in to hit precision shots when needed.

 

Actually my play took a noticeable jump when I rebound the button to go in and out of zoom mode to the outer side button on my mouse. It resulted in a BIG drop in the use of autoaim (I have pretty shaky hands) and was one of the things that made me feel confident enough to regularly try TXs.



FramFramson #19 Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:01 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 39575 battles
  • 3,290
  • [AVAST] AVAST
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

View PostThomChen114, on 10 April 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

unless those TDs behind you had closed in and joined you guys there, the other MTs don't have the same gun dep that you have to compete against an M48. But they do have tougher raw armor on the turret, and they would lurch forward after the enemy MTs had fired to try to get a hit. 

 

as i've said occasionally, the STB-1 is no good for hitting weakspots at any range, especially against moving targets. You either load the HEAT and go through the cheeks of those turrets, risk it and go for the hulls or relocate to somewhere else. 

 

Yeah, I didn't start yelling at them, but you might have noticed that I flashed our TDs a couple times trying to get them to come up so we could all push together. In retrospect I should have just taken off when it was clear they weren't going to do that.

 

I find the HEAT in the STB to be particularly unreliable, which is another reason I'm often hesitant to load it. That's one thing that really annoys me sometimes - both regular (ACPR) and gold ammo in a lot of high-tier MTs want to hit flat surfaces.


Edited by FramFramson, 10 April 2018 - 11:03 AM.

LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


ThomChen114 #20 Posted 10 April 2018 - 12:23 PM

    Captain

  • Beta-Tester
  • 35190 battles
  • 1,147
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View PostFramFramson, on 10 April 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

Yeah, I didn't start yelling at them, but you might have noticed that I flashed our TDs a couple times trying to get them to come up so we could all push together. In retrospect, I should have just taken off when it was clear they weren't going to do that.

 

I find the HEAT in the STB to be particularly unreliable, which is another reason I'm often hesitant to load it. That's one thing that really annoys me sometimes - both regular (ACPR) and gold ammo in a lot of high-tier MTs want to hit flat surfaces.

 

  it's a harsh reality that you can't, shouldn't, and thus don't rely on random allies to do their job for you. but you may want to consider their perspective, they think their position is fine, and perhaps if the 121 and 430 with you had fallen further back with you and drawn the enemy in then they'd be able to assist, but they only later themselves moved up. Yeah you could've gone elsewhere or just been more patient.

 

yeah, the normalization of APCR vs AP can be wonky (which is why a BC-25t can get away with so much), and also how APCR loses more penetration over distance than AP (though as we all know it obviously doesn't apply to superior Stalinium APCR), and coupled with the already wonky gun handling of the STB-1's 105mm gun makes for a mixed experience. and yeah HEAT is a [edited] when there's plenty of crap and angles that can get in the way.

 


Owned Tier 10s: Obj 907, IS-7, Obj 140, M60, M48A5 Patton, STB-1, WZ-111 5A, 113, Centurion Action X, Super Conqueror, Badger





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users