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When enough is enough, Arty & 3.5.7 MM

mm arty match maker uninstall

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HexHammer #21 Posted 14 August 2018 - 07:32 AM

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+2 matchmaking has been long criticized by the player base and the big streamers, the fact that WG have allowed this open sore to fester so long boggles the mind. 3 arty per team is another common complaint, how hard is it to at least fix that problem.

 

Totally agree OP. WG have seemed intent on ignoring this problem hoping it goes away, only to find that the problem remains and it is the players that are going away.

 

You can game high winrates by doing tier7 or tier9 / 3-man platoons or running high skilled crews  in light tanks using food. I sometimes like to take out my LUCH with a 5 skill crew, run food and enhanced optics bought with bonds, and slaughter any new potential WG customers before they get too hooked on the game. I got to the top3 on the server in the Luchs doing that, sealclubbing is another game-killing problem that WG seem intent on ignoring

 

If you want to play with your kid, get a Valentine2 or KV 220, you get good matchmaking winrates in them. The tier3 cruiser tanks are good too, they only see tier4 tanks maximum.

 

 


Edited by BrutalOlyx, 14 August 2018 - 07:37 AM.


FramFramson #22 Posted 14 August 2018 - 08:14 AM

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+2 MM is not going away.

 

How many times do you have to be reminded how much of WG's business model relies on it.

 

I'd be happy if they just brought back Frontline periodically.


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CelestiaLudenberg #23 Posted 14 August 2018 - 08:38 AM

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For me the problem with artillery isn't how much damage they do, or their stun duration, or anything to do with the vehicle itself.

 

The problem is that you have 3 of them in every game, which then combined with their respective stun/RoF/damage causes all the problems. I don't mind being hit b arty for 300-500 on average, if it is once every 30s+ but with how it is you are getting hit for that every 10s because they usually have staggered reloads. Some of you do not understand the plight that is being arty focused, I blacklist anyone who arty focuses me and let me tell you, my blacklist grows by an average of ~10 per night, it is simply not fun and frankly ruins the game.

 

If artillery were to be further limited to 2, ideally 1, per team, then that would fix pretty much every problem to do with arty.

 

Hell, I would actually be happy if arty got their AP rounds back because the current alpha damage (Only if it pens obviously) of the nerfed HE round of arty are 90% identical to the alpha of their old AP rounds. This way you get a choice, do you want to usually hit for half or a third of your HE damage, but stun people as well as being able to still damage through a splash if you miss, or do you want to use AP to have more consistent damage, especially against HT's but at the cost of doing stun, being able to still do some damage upon a miss, or even just not penetrate at all. This would make arty a little bit more dynamic.


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Remi_Devil #24 Posted 14 August 2018 - 09:39 AM

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SPGs need a second nerf like double their reload time or triple their aim time.

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Carves #25 Posted 14 August 2018 - 10:39 AM

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View PostBrutalOlyx, on 14 August 2018 - 06:32 AM, said:

+2 matchmaking has been long criticized by the player base and the big streamers, the fact that WG have allowed this open sore to fester so long boggles the mind. 3 arty per team is another common complaint, how hard is it to at least fix that problem.

 

Totally agree OP. WG have seemed intent on ignoring this problem hoping it goes away, only to find that the problem remains and it is the players that are going away.

 

You can game high winrates by doing tier7 or tier9 / 3-man platoons or running high skilled crews  in light tanks using food. I sometimes like to take out my LUCH with a 5 skill crew, run food and enhanced optics bought with bonds, and slaughter any new potential WG customers before they get too hooked on the game. I got to the top3 on the server in the Luchs doing that, sealclubbing is another game-killing problem that WG seem intent on ignoring

 

If you want to play with your kid, get a Valentine2 or KV 220, you get good matchmaking winrates in them. The tier3 cruiser tanks are good too, they only see tier4 tanks maximum.

 

 

 

View PostCelestiaLudenberg, on 14 August 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

For me the problem with artillery isn't how much damage they do, or their stun duration, or anything to do with the vehicle itself.

 

The problem is that you have 3 of them in every game, which then combined with their respective stun/RoF/damage causes all the problems. I don't mind being hit b arty for 300-500 on average, if it is once every 30s+ but with how it is you are getting hit for that every 10s because they usually have staggered reloads. Some of you do not understand the plight that is being arty focused, I blacklist anyone who arty focuses me and let me tell you, my blacklist grows by an average of ~10 per night, it is simply not fun and frankly ruins the game.

 

If artillery were to be further limited to 2, ideally 1, per team, then that would fix pretty much every problem to do with arty.

 

Hell, I would actually be happy if arty got their AP rounds back because the current alpha damage (Only if it pens obviously) of the nerfed HE round of arty are 90% identical to the alpha of their old AP rounds. This way you get a choice, do you want to usually hit for half or a third of your HE damage, but stun people as well as being able to still damage through a splash if you miss, or do you want to use AP to have more consistent damage, especially against HT's but at the cost of doing stun, being able to still do some damage upon a miss, or even just not penetrate at all. This would make arty a little bit more dynamic.

 

I agree that 3 arties per-team or more is to many, 2 max should be ideal. But I have looked at many recent and slightly 1 year old replays a lot recently and noticed that most replays actually had no arty in game. There were old discussion back way then as to why there are sometime many arties is due to the server population is low and/or not enough tiered tanks to fill in the 15 vs.15 battles, that is why MM filled the tank slot with arty. But I dont know if WG still set the MM this way or not.

 

I also dont like the stunt damage model they have. I dont know if this is some kind of an arty buff in a subtle way but I dont like the idea. Might as well removed it from the game and just trade it back with arty damage.

 

Arty has been dull since the great nerf, plus WG now add another skill set for tank players to detect if arty is aiming them (a 800+ dmg avoidance system just from arty) Most replays that I have seen still clearly showed people just openly stroll in the open and then got hit by arty. But then again even when there are no arties, people STILL do stroll in the open and got hit by an invisible FV/JPE-10000 decided to take out 1800+ dmg from across the map. Who to blame ?

 

So please learn to choose your strategy wisely like I have mentioned it earlier.


Please buff arty !

CelestiaLudenberg #26 Posted 14 August 2018 - 11:00 AM

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You don't see many arty in the replays of god-tier games because of the lack of artillery, I am an extremely aggressive player, as most unicums are, and artillery makes you have to play so much more passively as you can't 'outplay' artillery like you can TD's.

 

TD's have set locations that they will be in, and you can simply go to places where you know they won't have a line of sight to, then get around them. Simple.

 

Artillery on the other hand you can not. You say that you can 'Just use tall cover' but believe it or not, they can still hit you with splash and stun damage, and this also ties back into what I said about how artillery forces games to stagnate because you have to stay in cover otherwise you get shit on by the chalk eaters. You can't use terrain against them like you can every other class, and they don't have to hit you to do damage/stun.

 

I'm not asking for them to be nerfed, or the maps to be made more arty safe, all I want is there to not be 3 arty every game causing everyone to play extremely passively. Limit to 2, preferably 1 per team, done.

 

Do I play artillery? Yes, when I am trying to do my personal missions, or in CW. I feel terrible for playing it as I know that I am using little-to-no brain power to do damage, I don't have to do any thinking at all, I am usually watching Twitch or Youtube at the same time because there is nothing better to do during reloads.

Speaking of reloads, sure they have a 'long' reload, but 30s is not actually very long when in a brawling situation, you only really get to fire one or two shots before arty is on you again.


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Puggsley #27 Posted 14 August 2018 - 11:28 AM

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There are not 3 arty every game, vbaddict clearly shows that the average is 1.4 to 1.7 depending on the month. The occasional 3 arty game is the price you pay for having occasional no arty games. Limiting it to 2 or 1 arty per game will effectively ensure that you never have a zero arty game - like what frontline and ranked battles turned into.

 

About six months ago there was a rash of anti arty posts and I noted how different this was to my experience. I had run a mod for a while which tracked arty damage. And it was not much. I was playing reasonably aggressively but will readily admit I'm OK but have plenty of XVM camo!

 

Often this would be good and excellent players saying how bad it was. I thought it odd that they would be able to sustain such great stats if they were being continually taken out by arty. Surely sustained focus by arty would make it impossible to get such consistently high damage and wins?

 

What tweaked my interest was a youtube post of a great player claiming to being XVM targeted by arty. In the clip the first time he got shot by arty was after he had spent 4 minutes sitting in the complete open effectively not moving and fighting multiple tanks with not one single arty shot being fired at him (there was 3 arty on the enemy side). He was targeted late game, but only because there was no other targets lit. The anecdote didn't match with what was actually happening. Why didn't arty focus on him, or even shoot at him once, when it had a better chance of shooting him much earlier in the game? There seemed little interest in running the mods to collect data.

 

I purposely didn't base my experiment on my experience because of the "yes but you are not good enough to understand" issue. This data was collected in streams because that showed a more representative experience. Single replays are not ideal due to cherry picking of selected games where arty did shoot at them. The best players streamed regularly so there was no shortage of decent data points. 

 

Watching over 500 games of the best unicums on the server (to get the full impact of maximum xvm sniping) and in one of the best clans (Yeti - to get maximum arty impact of being targeted because of your clan tags if arty was not running XVM) showed clearly how little impact arty has on the game.

 

Every single arty shot at them was logged for how much damage it caused, and how much damage they took while being stunned. I also noted what was going on in the game at the time - winning, losing map control, who was nearby. In particular I noted if the same arty shot over and over at the same target - ie they purposely targeted the player. I saw only one case of this where Saffe was shot a couple of times when there were other easier targets available. Most of the time arty would focus on any tanks foolish enough to sit in close proximity, or to be poking a corner. Arty strongly tends to shoot at an area as a priority ahead of specific individuals. This was evident from observing one of the unicums playing arty.

 

These players were hyper aggressive, fighting on the front line, some with a complete disregard for playing in any style which would limit arty targeting them and giving them a pounding (fighting from spots with no hard arty cover, repeatedly poking the same spot as soon as the gun was reloaded, being spotted all the time). If ever there was players asking to be smashed by arty these guys were it. Bol in particular adopted a "damn the torpedoes" approach.

 

And yet arty rarely hit them, even when there was 3. Very occasionally they would get shot by 2 arty but it was totally clear that arty was shifting onto the juiciest target going - multiple tanks. Bol was the most aggressive and even he was averaging about 0.6 hits (direct, splash with damage and splash without damage) per game. There was one session where he got to 0.8.

 

When they were shot at by arty, the hull down style meant they took very little stunned damage as a result (<150hp at TX of damage while stunned). But what was surprising was that they would have many games where they took no arty shots at all. 

 

The average number of arty they faced was very close to the server average so that you could imply they were not facing an abnormal number of arty (too high or too low). Most games had 1 arty, with 2 being reasonably frequent. Zero and 3 arty games were relatively infrequent. 

 

Arty does not pound people into the dirt every game. Most people will average about 0.3 to 0.6 hits (both direct and indirect) per game. Mostly because there is not that much arty on the enemy, and most games are over in about 7 minutes. With 14 other tanks its rare that you will be singled out, even if you have super stats.

 

One interesting thing was the impact arty had on campers. One of the unicums played a support tank (for hours) and well over half his damage from arty came from less than 10% of his games. This was where his team lost map control and he was boxed into a small area. Camping meant that you took almost zero damage when your team performed, but you actually took huge damage when your team didn't do well. Arty did punish camping, but only when the battle was effectively decided anyway.

 

My main takeaways to limit arty's impact on me were

 

  • NEVER EVER position next to another ally if you are in an arty open area. You don't have to be far away, just enough to make it impossible to give arty 2 hits from one shot. Bol/Val are exceptional at this.
  • Fight from a hull down position if at all possible so that getting stunned/tracked means enemy tanks have low percentage shots at you. This works even in the most exposed of main fighting areas at the start of the game which is arty's main focus.
  • Aggressively close the distance with arty, it makes their gun arcs much worse and makes it a lot harder for you to be hit. Winning main fighting areas quickly is what unicums love to do, and winning them quickly reduces the amount of time arty has to shoot. These guys seem to accept a little bit of arty damage as the price of fighting in an area which has huge potential to farm damage. Bol's rages were pretty impressive though!
  • Arty's real damage comes from when you play statically or lose map control and they can pre-aim. 

 

I tested this by asking for people to submit replays where they were targeted. Very often it was when they positioned next to another tank, and fighting on a corner was also punished. Sometimes they would be focussed by arty if they were lit, but how frequent is this? It was extremely rare on the super unicum streams - mainly mid to late game when there were relatively few targets being lit.



Carves #28 Posted 14 August 2018 - 11:37 AM

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View PostCelestiaLudenberg, on 14 August 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

You don't see many arty in the replays of god-tier games because of the lack of artillery, I am an extremely aggressive player, as most unicums are, and artillery makes you have to play so much more passively as you can't 'outplay' artillery like you can TD's.

 

Most unicums are not aggressive players and damage managers which they can adapt in any situations. And yes no many arties in god-tier because arty almost never makes money and most all unicums arty players left the game quitely or switch to TDs or simply left quitely.

 

Block Quote

Artillery on the other hand you can not. You say that you can 'Just use tall cover' but believe it or not, they can still hit you with splash and stun damage, and this also ties back into what I said about how artillery forces games to stagnate because you have to stay in cover otherwise you get shit on by the chalk eaters. You can't use terrain against them like you can every other class, and they don't have to hit you to do damage/stun.

 

This has been mentioned in my earlier post.

 

Block Quote

TD's have set locations that they will be in, and you can simply go to places where you know they won't have a line of sight to, then get around them. Simple.

 

Sure, arty position is the same. So as a unicums you should know where the salvos are gonna come from. Simple.

 

Block Quote

Do I play artillery? Yes, when I am trying to do my personal missions, or in CW. I feel terrible for playing it as I know that I am using little-to-no brain power to do damage, I don't have to do any thinking at all, I am usually watching Twitch or Youtube at the same time because there is nothing better to do during reloads.

 

I'm sorry. I'm a person with little brain power. So I play arty and with little brain power I can still able to shoot down tanks behind every mountain, rocks, houses, trees, twigs, and grass.

And I'm sorry that during my reload time, I watch the minimap and looking for my next shoot and that tank which completely forgotten there are arty in the game. I'm sorry that the medium tank got hit behind a mountain and got confused because he things me (as an arty player) just keep sitting near the base.

 

Block Quote

Speaking of reloads, sure they have a 'long' reload, but 30s is not actually very long when in a brawling situation, you only really get to fire one or two shots before arty is on you again.

 

You took a risk as an aggressive player. Does it pay off in the end ? It comes back to sense of awareness and your ability to do damage management.

 


Please buff arty !

Carves #29 Posted 14 August 2018 - 11:48 AM

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View PostPuggsley, on 14 August 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Watching over 500 games of the best unicums on the server (to get the full impact of maximum xvm sniping) and in one of the best clans (Yeti - to get maximum arty impact of being targeted because of your clan tags if arty was not running XVM) showed clearly how little impact arty has on the game.

 

Yes this is true. My job is to take their best player(s) first or at least prohibited them to do massive damage. So if the enemies best players already defeated mentally because it is an open map and arty is present. My team has a better chance to win and makes my job easier.

 

Good point.


Please buff arty !

MM_is_Broken #30 Posted 14 August 2018 - 11:59 AM

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Try 3 artys on malinovlanka  encounter climb hill  in a slow tank see if you can survive, its pretty hopless 9 times out of 10 

if you call it fun for the slow heavy tank player climbing the hill you sir are just stupid 

 


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The_average_tanker #31 Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:08 PM

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View PostTobias_Reaper, on 13 August 2018 - 06:14 PM, said:

Well, compared to you all I'm pretty new to this game....But as for there being 3 Arty in the game- what I observed in the few Tier 10 games last week in Skorp G, there is almost always only 1 Arty....Though yes, in tier 5-6-7 there is always 3 Arty-s in a game.

Regarding the MM problem - yup, MM over Tier 6 is shit...All my Skorp G games last week, I was the bottom tier...But somehow I got great teams who took care of the opponent Tier X-s and I also contributed as well as I can. On an average I can say that in Tier 6 games I'm getting top tier 1 out of every 3 games...And as I'm playing TD-s in general, I don't have to take the risk to go to the front and face the tier 8 HT in the other 2 games. 

 

 

Tiers 5,6,7 has 3 arty always. it is because a lot of free to play players earn their credits at that tier and a certain M44 is the best credit earning tank at tier 6. higher tier arty is not that earning so many people do not play them and mostly do so for the missions (that is why you find them firing gold all the time).

 

 

 

 


Angmar_ #32 Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:30 PM

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Data aside Puggsley, does arty or does arty not simply make the game less fun to play ? It doesn't really matter if the in game effect is exaggerated by confirmation bias if the end result is that the game is just less fun because arty exists.

Dyn_marw #33 Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:30 PM

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View PostBrutalOlyx, on 13 August 2018 - 11:32 PM, said:

+2 matchmaking has been long criticized by the player base and the big streamers, the fact that WG have allowed this open sore to fester so long boggles the mind. 3 arty per team is another common complaint, how hard is it to at least fix that problem.

 

Totally agree OP. WG have seemed intent on ignoring this problem hoping it goes away, only to find that the problem remains and it is the players that are going away.

 

You can game high winrates by doing tier7 or tier9 / 3-man platoons or running high skilled crews  in light tanks using food. I sometimes like to take out my LUCH with a 5 skill crew, run food and enhanced optics bought with bonds, and slaughter any new potential WG customers before they get too hooked on the game. I got to the top3 on the server in the Luchs doing that, sealclubbing is another game-killing problem that WG seem intent on ignoring

 

If you want to play with your kid, get a Valentine2 or KV 220, you get good matchmaking winrates in them. The tier3 cruiser tanks are good too, they only see tier4 tanks maximum.

 

 

 

Thanks mate its not about stats or playing with my son its more the way this game is going, 

Dyn_marw #34 Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:38 PM

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View PostCelestiaLudenberg, on 14 August 2018 - 12:38 AM, said:

 

 

Hell, I would actually be happy if arty got their AP rounds back because the current alpha damage (Only if it pens obviously) of the nerfed HE round of arty are 90% identical to the alpha of their old AP rounds. This way you get a choice, do you want to usually hit for half or a third of your HE damage, but stun people as well as being able to still damage through a splash if you miss, or do you want to use AP to have more consistent damage, especially against HT's but at the cost of doing stun, being able to still do some damage upon a miss, or even just not penetrate at all. This would make arty a little bit more dynamic.

 

I agree.

I would think that WG have factored into every game that it they can have over half the players use a MED kit and Repair Kit this will cost us more money, hence the arty mechanic.



Dyn_marw #35 Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:46 PM

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View PostCarves, on 14 August 2018 - 02:39 AM, said:

 

 

 

 

So please learn to choose your strategy wisely like I have mentioned it earlier.

Hmm ................ sorry as I stated before your stats show if you play arty more then anything and you also have good stats.

 

Look at the amount of people in arty when it comes to ranked.

 

Anyway this is more to do with MM and arty not just arty. 



Dyn_marw #36 Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:54 PM

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View PostAngmar_, on 14 August 2018 - 04:30 AM, said:

Data aside Puggsley, does arty or does arty not simply make the game less fun to play ? It doesn't really matter if the in game effect is exaggerated by confirmation bias if the end result is that the game is just less fun because arty exists.

 

Thanks........

neokai #37 Posted 14 August 2018 - 01:08 PM

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View PostMM_is_Broken, on 14 August 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

Try 3 artys on malinovlanka  encounter climb hill  in a slow tank see if you can survive, its pretty hopless 9 times out of 10 

if you call it fun for the slow heavy tank player climbing the hill you sir are just stupid 

 

 

I've played Vk100 and KV-3 in a tier X/VIII malinovka game recently iirc. It's the reason why the windmill is so powerful - you are protected from most arty and have damage mitigation (since they splash further away) while the opposing team is fully exposed to your arty.

 

It sucks if the faster tanks aren't willing to take/hold the windmill position first since it will result in the scenario you described, but even without arty unless you are in a Conq or T-29 being on the downslope also puts you on the backfoot against folks shooting down on you from the windmill.

 

View PostAngmar_, on 14 August 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Data aside Puggsley, does arty or does arty not simply make the game less fun to play ? It doesn't really matter if the in game effect is exaggerated by confirmation bias if the end result is that the game is just less fun because arty exists.

 

I see fewer rage threads about arty now than before. Not sure confirmation bias on my part.
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Carves #38 Posted 14 August 2018 - 01:09 PM

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View PostA_DEADman, on 14 August 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Hmm ................ sorry as I stated before your stats show if you play arty more then anything and you also have good stats.

 

Look at the amount of people in arty when it comes to ranked.

 

Anyway this is more to do with MM and arty not just arty. 

 

As I have predicted that the conversation will turn this way as always.

 

Because I'm a dedicated arty players, then my point of view is not valid because I'm different.
And if I'm not a dedicated arty players then I dont know what I'm talking about.

 

When all fails. Blame MM.


Please buff arty !

neokai #39 Posted 14 August 2018 - 01:09 PM

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View PostA_DEADman, on 14 August 2018 - 12:46 PM, said:

Hmm ................ sorry as I stated before your stats show if you play arty more then anything and you also have good stats.

 

Look at the amount of people in arty when it comes to ranked.

 

Anyway this is more to do with MM and arty not just arty. 

 

I see at most 3 per team, and 12 of other tanks. Queue-wise you can snap shot the waiting list sorted by tank type and see how many multiples of players are in TDs and MTs (easily 4 to 5x at least).
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Dyn_marw #40 Posted 14 August 2018 - 01:35 PM

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View PostCarves, on 14 August 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

 

As I have predicted that the conversation will turn this way as always.

 

Because I'm a dedicated arty players, then my point of view is not valid because I'm different.
And if I'm not a dedicated arty players then I dont know what I'm talking about.

 

When all fails. Blame MM.

 

Sorry Carves I do value everyone's point but I don't completely agree with what you are saying and don't feel the need for you to agree with me also.

If someone wants to tell me how to play arty and has never done it them self I can see how they have an objective view, same as someone saying arty is fine and has spent half their time playing the game in arty.

MM is the issue more then anything and should have +1 -1 not 3.5.7 as a base.

I just find it so funny when people say arty is worse to play now and yet I know as you do also Arty can be more powerful then ever if done correctly.

 

Aim at the tanks that your team are going to shoot and watch the xp tick over lol, I do the same when I play arty.

 







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