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Premium Ammo Rebalancing

Rebalancing Premium Ammo Gold Ammo Gold T49 Sheridan Changes 2019

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mttspiii #81 Posted 07 June 2019 - 12:52 AM

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View PostTinDingo, on 06 June 2019 - 07:22 PM, said:

Before WG nerfed gold ammo in WOT Blitz, they first stopped selling it for gold.

You could still buy it but only for credits.

When they were happy that enough of the gold ammo purchased for gold had been consumed, they then nerfed it.

 

 

The gold ammo problem in WOT is not a new thing.

We've seen it all before in WOT Blitz where it has been dealt with in a practical way.

Not at all what they are proposing now.

 

Too many players knew what WG's plan is and thus stockpiled their gold-bought gold rounds. Blitz was able to bleed off the gold rounds quickly enough, but WoT is too old with too many players hanging on to too many gold rounds for the gold rounds to be consumed quickly enough.

 

WG had to act fast; gold rounds (and sprem) sorely needs a rebalance if WG wants the game to reach its 10-year anniversary.


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Dread_Pirate_BlackHeart #82 Posted 07 June 2019 - 09:07 AM

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I can't go reading pages of forum posts about this, but I'm sure someone will have already mentioned it:

 

Let's face some FACTS about World of Tanks.

1) Russian tanks, especially at higher tiers are OP.

2) Gold ammo is primarily used to ensure a player can ACTUALLY DAMAGE another tank, as it has higher penetration values than other ammo types.

 

Now, when presented with the two facts, I gotta say, if I am forced to engage a russian tank, I will press 2, and in some cases the odd rare other nation tank for example type 4-5 HT, jpze100 etc.

 

If WG reduce the damage potential for gold ammo while retaining the penetration values, this is a huge BUFF to mostly...RUSSIAN TANKS.

 

And not just the russian heavy tanks, the mediums and a lot of the TDs too.

They will take a lot LONGER to kill, and remain in the battle for longer, pumping out more damage themselves, giving them more opportunity to remove their tanks from a deadly engagement, to flee and reset their position,and re-engage.


 



 


AlexTheKid72 #83 Posted 07 June 2019 - 09:14 AM

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View PostDuggieNZ, on 06 June 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

ummmm why don't WG just lower the damage of the gold ammo ?

then there is no need to change any tank parameters  

problem solved :)

 

They cannot. Premiums were bought as advertised, if they reduce anything we have grounds for fair trading disputes.

So instead they are buffing hp and standard round damage to achieve the same results.

Seems [edited]-backwards and alot of work, but it's necessary for the legal side of premium tank sales ......

I am now worried that high pen high alpha td's are going to become the new meta .......... 

Ezz #84 Posted 07 June 2019 - 09:27 AM

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View PostMuds_Revenge, on 07 June 2019 - 11:07 AM, said:

If WG reduce the damage potential for gold ammo while retaining the penetration values, this is a huge BUFF to mostly...RUSSIAN TANKS.

To be fair, as you note, it's a buff to all the tanks that rely on armor. There will be quite a few non russian tanks that benefit. To me tho, russian or not, for better or worse, the overall balance of the game is likely to be greatly impacted by a change as they have mentioned.

 

It's one thing tweaking arty splash, or nerfing a few derps, but changes of this scale are very rare. Even the accuracy sigma changes were relatively minor compared to what they are proposing. And all because some people don't like the fact that there are rounds that cost more and are more effective. Yet at the same time WG thrive on selling premium tanks that cost more and are more effective and there's bugger all chance WG are ever going to fix that.


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Vindictus_Maximus #85 Posted 07 June 2019 - 09:47 AM

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View PostAlexTheKid72, on 07 June 2019 - 09:14 AM, said:

 I am now worried that high pen high alpha td's are going to become the new meta .......... 

 

The maths make this a certainty.

 

This will totally nerf all mediums and lights, and make heavy armor dominant.. The biggest complaints of this game have consistently been too much armor (obj 268v4) or HE derp (Type5 ). Basically because these allow low skill players to play above their skill level. 

 

These changes, even if they are watered down, will end up being Wargamings biggest ever mistake. They will piss off the majority of their player base to please the vocal minority F2P complainers. Madness. In the meantime, I guess many will stop buying premiums because the current stats are now apparentl meaningless, and you will end up spending money on a tank that will be turned into a dud ( Type59 G comes to mind)

 

And less investment in the game overall, because these changes will obviously break the game, so why invest in a game that apparently has a deathwish

 

 


Edited by Vindictus_Maximus, 07 June 2019 - 09:47 AM.


Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #86 Posted 07 June 2019 - 09:58 AM

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View PostAlexTheKid72, on 07 June 2019 - 09:14 AM, said:

 

I am now worried that high pen high alpha td's are going to become the new meta .......... 

 

You mean an E4 will no longer be just a worse E5 with less HP armor and speed?

 

That sounds good actually.

 

In fact that sounds like TD will actually start being useful. Coz right now the high tier ones dont have usable DPM nor penetration advantage for the loss of mobility+armor+hp combination compared to other tank types.

 

Also why the fixation on Type59 G by certain member. It is a 7500 gold tank with a 17500 gold skin. It has pref MM and the silver round penetration is the same as many tier 8 MT.


Edited by Aoyama_Blue_Mountain, 07 June 2019 - 10:03 AM.

Noobs don't snipe because they are good at snipe; noobs snipe because they can't do anything else / People don't lose because they lemming; people lemming because they are losers

Do not confuse team strength with individual strength; a single enemy killed in a 1v3 is worth more than two enemies killed in a 4v2 / Lanchester's Square Law predicts in a 2v1, the side with 2 will end with 1.5 tanks remaining, so if you won with less than that remaining, you're actually noob, not pro

When you are not losing because you outnumber the enemy, your other flank is losing because they are outnumbered; it's just math

Law of mirror: When you are holding a 1v6 against the enemy, you own team is also getting 6v1 held by the enemy

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Ezz #87 Posted 07 June 2019 - 10:11 AM

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View PostAoyama_Blue_Mountain, on 07 June 2019 - 11:58 AM, said:

 

You mean an E4 will no longer be just a worse E5 with less HP armor and speed?

 

That sounds good actually.

 

In fact that sounds like TD will actually start being useful. Coz right now the high tier ones dont have usable DPM nor penetration advantage for the loss of mobility+armor+hp combination compared to other tank types.

 

Also why the fixation on Type59 G by certain member. It is a 7500 gold tank with a 17500 gold skin. It has pref MM and the silver round penetration is the same as many tier 8 MT.

 

It's not like TDs are rare tho. Roll out in the upper tiers and there's usually 6-10 in the battle. If there is an issue with them not being useful it certainly hasn't impacted on the players running them.

 

And yeah the 59 skin was, rather amusingly, bound to bring about a range of buyer remorse. The fact is the 59 adheres to the old WG release approach where costing more or not sold often doesn't mean it's broken OP.


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Twit_ #88 Posted 07 June 2019 - 12:49 PM

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Been reading through this thread and it is far out of line with what is happening on sandbox with a lot of misconceptions held... but I guess its to be expected with most of the sandbox testers (including me (btw ty for accepting my application WG)) being present on the SB forums, and not on the main forums.

 

Special ammunition 'spam' is not a problem in this game, it is a symptom of issues that WG have baked into the game:

  1. Bad map design/corridor maps
  2. Overly armoured HTs and TDs
  3. RNG on aiming and penetration values

What is the justification for shooting gold?

  • If you have a tank with AP standard, the premium round is practically straight up better in every single way. APCR is faster and has better penetration than the standard round, so why not shoot it to give you an advantage in the game? 
  • The matchmaker template of 3 tiers in one game mean that Tier VIIIs have no way to compete effectively against Tier X tanks. You have to shoot gold against high tier tanks as they better armour, alpha and dpm compared to lower tier tanks, so to trade effectively you need to press the 2 key. That's just how it is.
  • Armour in the game has been increasing and increasing with the addition of every new tank in the game such that you are almost required to shoot HEAT or prem ammunition to have a chance of penetrating the armour. For an example, the Type 5's armour can not be penned by standard rounds, unless you are playing a TD with high standard pen. A Maus that is hiding the lower plate cannot be penetrated frontally. A 279(e) should you ever face the tank is ~270mm of effective frontal armour with no lower plate. If you play an M48 Patton, that has 268mm base pen - you won't pen a 279e frontally, without shooting the cupolas that can be hidden with the tank's gun depression.
  • "Well why don't you just flank?" In corridor maps you are forced to face tanks frontally. So if you have an Sconq/60TP hull down in randoms with little chance of flanking, that tank can shut down a part of the map.
  • Standard rounds are not a guaranteed pen. If you are in a close game situation, the last thing you should be doing is risking a bounce or a non-penetrating shot, especially with tanks that have a 20-30% chance of bouncing on a weakspot.
  • RNG. The game was updated in patch 9.6 to have dispersion of shells move further away from the centre of the reticule, to make shots less accurate. (details here: https://worldoftanks.com/en/news/general-news/9-6-accuracy-changes/). Shooting a tank at 300-400m away now has the chance to completely miss your shots with standard shells, no matter how accurate your aim was or if the target was sitting still in the open. So it makes sense to make sure that you shoot special ammunition so that even if you do hit the target you still have a reasonable chance to cause dmg.

I shoot gold because I want to maximise my performance in a game. If I get shot by gold rounds, I don't complain anyway, because 9 times out of 10 I made a mistake that was exploited, whether it be bad positioning or a flank fell down allowing the enemy team to shoot me in the side, in which case I would have been penned by standard rounds in the first place.

 

What the Sandbox changes mean

WG buffed the alpha of all the standard rounds on the test client. If a tank has HE as the standard round, then the alpha increase is also applied. 390 alpha guns now become 525, and 750 now becomes 1060. This is effectively nerfing the dmg of the premium round, whichever way you want to look at it. As a result on the SB client, TDs and superheavy tanks receive a buff; some autoloaders become stronger as well.

 

These changes probably won't get to the live server, for a multitude of reasons.

  1. There is more special ammunition being spammed. Playing against a Maus with its HP buffed to 3.5k is a very funny thing, as the tank can resist standard rounds if the lower plate is hidden - therefore making the tank more effective in trading especially against mediums and weaker HTs like the T110E5. Facing a maus frontally still means you have to shoot premium ammunition to pen, regardless of the alpha trade off you lose by not shooting AP. You are never going to have the chance to use the highest amount of dpm possible against tanks that have decent frontal armour or trollish armour, like the 268 v4.
  2. More people are playing TDs. Why lose out in a 1v1 against a well armoured tank when you can slap tanks from far away for 1k dmg per shot in a grille? WG may have already realised this, because the JpzE100 or the FV4005 does not feature in the testing, despite being in the selected tech trees for testing. TDs that have high alpha (ie nearly every tier x TD) and high pen per shot are some of the easiest tanks to play on the client - 2 shots and you have a decent game in the grille. Imagine what the buffed alpha would compare against lower tier tanks. 
  3. SPG class also becomes stronger. Although HE shells are not buffed as much compared to AP shells, they are still a buff. The T92 HMC gets 1580 alpha dmg. Same principle as TDs, if you don't want to lose out against a heavily armoured tank, play a TD or SPG, which do not have to risk any sort of HP until the end of the game.

 

Will these changes make it to the live server?

No. In the current state on the SB server and the feedback on the forums (particularly the Russian community) being largely negative I think they will rework the changes 1 more time before stopping.

Why? As stated before, there are more pressing issues in the live server. Tank tiers are not balanced, and map design sucks.

There is of course a way to make special ammunition less imbalanced, but that starts with eliminating the need to use special ammo in the first place - armour modelling and weakspots + RNG. Do I think that special ammo is imbalanced? Of course, but WG made it that way when they made the special shell sold at a higher price than the regular shell.

Maybe in the future you will see the price of each shell made the same and the pen lowered to make each shell characteristic a gameplay mechanic, but that won't be for a while.

 

My 2c



Mingfang47 #89 Posted 07 June 2019 - 06:24 PM

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