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southerner #61 Posted 20 May 2019 - 06:47 AM

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accident could wipe out mankind, it turned out it was just emotional claptrap, we are all still here. Then we had Fukushima, that was many times worse and we are all still here. They had a scare piece a few years ago about the all the radiation pouring out of the damaged reactors was going to make North America sterile from all the nuclear radiation poring out of the damaged reactors. Turns out whoever did the maths was way off in their calculations. So you learn to do the maths, dont take anything at face value. So North America is still there. 

 

My conclusion, the climate change and nuclear issues are emotional and involves lots of fake news and fake science.

 

Pretty much the same thing can be said about a nuclear war, its an emotional issue. At the end of the day there will always be survivors. Civilisation will keep on going, we probably wont have as an efficient civilization as we have now. We will probably have something like the 1920's. But we wont have caveman days again. The targets that were cities will just rapidly regenerate into forests of trees again that cannot be felled because the wood will lock up radioactive particles as well as carbon.


indignatio regis nuntii mortis et vir sapiens placabit ea 

MagicalFlyingFox #62 Posted 20 May 2019 - 11:06 AM

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No one is saying humans will go extinct, but our way of life will be completely different.

 

Food will be much harder to come by, at least temporarily as old crops can no longer grow where they used to as the temperature and rainfall patterns change to what is unsuitable for them. 

Food scarcity has massive ramifications for society, the ramifications of which are unpredictable. It could end in anarchy, it could also just end in effective rationing. It will be a war-time economy, with all focus on regaining our food production as soon as possible.

 

If you don't believe the effect climate change has on food, then you haven't paid attention to the news. Wheat production has decreased already, at least for this harvest. The Murray-Darling river is under threat (although this is more due to government mismanagement and corruption than climate change). The draught in country NSW for example. It will only get worse. 

 

 

The scary thing about climate change is that the math has been done, and its turning out to be true. The Earth Has heated up in the last decade. We are breaking records every year. Natural climate change just doesn't happen at the rate it is doing now, barring a supermassive volcano, a massive meteor strike or other global scale natural disasters.

 

Sure, you should read between the lines on the a whole bunch of the doomsday scenarios, a lot of them may have some basis in reality. They may all be true if humans were to do literally nothing about it, but humans are doing something about it. The thing is, is that all future models will either happen later or not be as severe because humans, regardless of some government's and businesses' staunch refusal to do anything, ARE doing something about it. Those models you see now will be inherently wrong because of that fact. 

 

 

Oh, and the whole scientific consensus thing. Once again, if people's whose entire career has been centred around the research of these areas has staked their reputation on the line for this very issue, what gives a random internet stranger the credibility to refute that? 

 

The scare piece on the Fukushima meltdown is exactly that. The only basis it has is that radiation can leak into the water. Any person with a shred of knowledge about dilution can tell you how stupid that theory is. No scientist with a reputation to uphold would stake theirs on such baseless claims. 

Also, i cannot even find any evidence such a claim was made. The existence of such a claim is fictional, unless you can prove me otherwise. 


Edited by MagicalFlyingFox, 20 May 2019 - 11:07 AM.

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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


southerner #63 Posted 20 May 2019 - 04:10 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 20 May 2019 - 03:06 PM, said:

No one is saying humans will go extinct, but our way of life will be completely different.

 

Food will be much harder to come by, at least temporarily as old crops can no longer grow where they used to as the temperature and rainfall patterns change to what is unsuitable for them. 

Food scarcity has massive ramifications for society, the ramifications of which are unpredictable. It could end in anarchy, it could also just end in effective rationing. It will be a war-time economy, with all focus on regaining our food production as soon as possible.

 

If you don't believe the effect climate change has on food, then you haven't paid attention to the news. Wheat production has decreased already, at least for this harvest. The Murray-Darling river is under threat (although this is more due to government mismanagement and corruption than climate change). The draught in country NSW for example. It will only get worse. 

 

 

The scary thing about climate change is that the math has been done, and its turning out to be true. The Earth Has heated up in the last decade. We are breaking records every year. Natural climate change just doesn't happen at the rate it is doing now, barring a supermassive volcano, a massive meteor strike or other global scale natural disasters.

 

Sure, you should read between the lines on the a whole bunch of the doomsday scenarios, a lot of them may have some basis in reality. They may all be true if humans were to do literally nothing about it, but humans are doing something about it. The thing is, is that all future models will either happen later or not be as severe because humans, regardless of some government's and businesses' staunch refusal to do anything, ARE doing something about it. Those models you see now will be inherently wrong because of that fact. 

 

 

Oh, and the whole scientific consensus thing. Once again, if people's whose entire career has been centred around the research of these areas has staked their reputation on the line for this very issue, what gives a random internet stranger the credibility to refute that? 

 

The scare piece on the Fukushima meltdown is exactly that. The only basis it has is that radiation can leak into the water. Any person with a shred of knowledge about dilution can tell you how stupid that theory is. No scientist with a reputation to uphold would stake theirs on such baseless claims. 

Also, i cannot even find any evidence such a claim was made. The existence of such a claim is fictional, unless you can prove me otherwise. 

 

I am talking Global climate change, climate change in individual countries is more pronounced as you said with the Murray Darling rivers. Th3e whole Australian continent is drying out. But Australia has always been dry anyway. Both Australia and New Zealand have very limited settlement by people that can make reasonably accurate of observations on Climate an example is Europe from 1300 to around 1825 where they had a mini ice age where it was recorded. In Australia and New Zealand there are no records of those years. (i mean eyes on the ground records). Sure there records in tree rings and other areas that i am unaware of but human observation of the effects..... nothing. What was Australia like during and between the years 1300 and 1825 ?  Europeans starting with the Dutch sailed and arrived around Australia from around the 16th century onwards but they hardly went into the interior until the 18th century. The question is, is the Australian climate reverting back to what it was before 1300 ? We just dont know. So we can say the same about global climate change is the earth reverting back to what it was before 1300 ? We have records that can point to climate conditions back then.

 

Now you say the scare piece  about Fukushima. I was talking about radiation released into the air and the scare piece saying that north america being sterilised, they got their maths wrong, all the doomsayers and stirrers that is. You mention radiation leakage into the water the Pacific is a huge volume of water. I have been on container ships that have sailed across the Pacific and its a hell of a lot of water, people that have never gone to sea have no idea. 

 

Here is a fact.

 

There are 20,000 drops in a liter, a trillion liters in a cubic kilometer, and 714 million cubic kilometers of water in the Pacific Ocean.Jul 18, 2017

 

So thats 714 million trillion liters Just in the Pacific ocean give or take a few liters.

 

Any radioactive isotopes released by Fukushima apart from solids will be very well diluted in the water by now.

 

Then there is the fact of half lives of the radioactive elements, sure some are very long half lives measured in multiple thousands of years. What most people overlook is that most radioactives have a half life of seconds to days as they decay over time.

 

Here is an article documenting some of the isotopes.

 

On March 11, 2011, a magnitude 8.9 earthquake struck the coast of Japan, causing the shutdown of 11 of Japan’s nuclear power reactors, including reactors 1, 2, and 3 at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant. Shortly after the shutdown, the pressure within reactor 1 built up to twice that of normal levels. In an attempt to relieve pressure, steam-containing radiation was vented from the reactors. Over the next several days, the plant continued to have problems and the levels of radiation in the surrounding areas continued to rise.Shortly thereafter, Japanese officials formed a 10-kilometer (km) evacuation zone, which, over the next few days, was increased to 20 km, resulting in the relocation of close to 390,000 people.

Fukushima reactor following the tsunamis.

Fukushima reactor following the tsunamis.

The Fukushima disaster released a number of radioactive isotopes into the atmosphere and the surrounding ocean. These included isotopes of iodine, cesium and xenon. Each of the isotopes listed below are a byproduct of the nuclear fission reactions that occur within a nuclear power plant. As the uranium in these plants breaks down, the uranium atoms release energy (such as gamma radiation) and particles (alpha and beta particles). This is called radioactive decay, and the loss of particles effectively transforms the original uranium atom into isotopes of another element. In many cases the resulting isotopes are also radioactive, and thus undergo additional radioactive decay.

Three of the more common isotopes released by the Fukushima disaster are listed below. These isotopes differ considerably in the types of radiation that they release, their half-lives, and their potential adverse effects on living organisms, such as humans.

 

Cesium-134 and Cesium-137

Perhaps the biggest concern following the Fukushima disaster was the release of radioactive cesium. Naturally, cesium (Cs) is a metal with an atomic number of 55 and an atomic mass of approximately 132.9.  However, within a nuclear reactor two isotopes of cesium (Cs-134 and Cs-137) are formed. Cesium 134 and Cesium 137 have half lives of 2 years and 30 years, respectively. Both of these isotopes release both beta particles and gamma radiation as they decay.  Both beta particles and gamma radiation have the ability to penetrate tissues and damage cells and their DNA. Exposure to beta particles and gamma radiation, either internally or externally, can cause burns and greatly increases the chances of [edited].

Following the Fukushima disaster there were significant concerns of Cs-137 entering the atmosphere and the Pacific Ocean. Because of the winds at the time, most of the Cs-137 was carried back over Japan, forcing evacuations up to 35 kilometers (22 miles) inland. Large regions of this evacuation zone still remain uninhabitable due to soil contamination by Cs-137. Small amounts of atmospheric Cs-137 were detected on the west coast of the United States, and some Cs-137 has been detected in the waters off the coast of California, but in neither case at levels that are considered hazardous to humans.

Iodine -131

Radioactive iodine, I-131, was also released by the reactors. Iodine is a water-soluble element that has an atomic number of 53 and an atomic mass of approximately 126.9. There are several forms of iodine isotopes, with I-131 being formed mainly by nuclear fission reactions. Like Cs-137, I-131 emits beta particles which may damage tissues. It also releases small amounts of gamma radiation.

Radioactive iodine only has a half life of about 8 days, so its long-term effect on the environment is minimal. In our bodies, iodine is mainly used by the thyroid gland to manufacture the thyroid hormones associated with metabolic functions, including overall metabolic rate. Intense exposure to I-131 may cause thyroid problems, including thyroid [edited]. Interestingly, isotopes of iodine at low doses are used by the medical profession to diagnose problems with the thyroid gland.

 

Xenon-133

Xenon (Xe) is a noble gas with an atomic number of 54 and an atomic weight of 131.2. One isotope of xenon , Xe-133 has a half-life of only 5 days. Like I-131 and Cs-137, Xe-133 is emits beta particles which may damage tissue, but the short half-life of the isotope limits the chances of severe problems.  Further reducing the risk is the fact that, as a noble gas, xenon does not react with other elements, and thus is not easily introduced into the chemical compounds within cells.

Like radioactive iodine,Xe-133 is used by the medical profession to diagnose disease. Since it is a gas, it is frequently used in the diagnosis of lung disorders. Studies are now underway to use Xe-133 as a form of treatment for certain types of lung [edited], since it easily enters the lungs and the emission of beta particles can help destroy lung [edited] cells.

 

Additional Resources

http://ricochetscience.com/isotopes-fukushima/

 

And here is a another fact, if you are really really worried about eating anything  out of the Pacific. Then you better stay away from Bananas as well. Turns out bananas are more radioactive than fish  :teethhappy::coin:.

 

please read link here.

 

https://oceana.org/blog/worried-about-fukushima-radiation-seafood-turns-out-bananas-are-more-radioactive-fish

 

 

 


Edited by southerner, 20 May 2019 - 04:24 PM.

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southerner #64 Posted 20 May 2019 - 04:21 PM

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I pulled this up where you said you couldn't find anything on the scare piece. I just asked teh right questions and pulled it up on google.

 

 

 

This is one of several fake science reports on the subject, These hoax's work is because too many people are willing jump on board and say we are all gonna die !!!????.

 

I say bulldust and just look for the facts.

 

So always remember, if you want to glow in the dark, eat more bananas :teethhappy:

 


Edited by southerner, 20 May 2019 - 04:23 PM.

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southerner #65 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:08 PM

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Here is an interesting video on the fightback against plastic waste in the oceans, this is the raw material for pyrolysis reactors. So if everybody in every country around an oceans shores did this, then it would be worthwhile.

 

 

And here is a link of improved pyrolysis  processes.

 

http://www.kleanindustries.com/s/sapporo_plastics_pyrolysis_recycling_plant.asp

 


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mttspiii #66 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:10 PM

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View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 06:33 AM, said:

Sorry maybe I used the wrong terminology, Its the rate of regrowth in some areas. Take Pripyat for example, the city of 12000 was abandoned after the Chenobyle nuclear accident in 1986, in the last 36 years the city has almost been taken over by reforestation. In some areas you can hardly see the buildings anymore.

 

In other parts of the world native trees are generally hardwoods and are very slow growing and can take up to 1000 years to reach full maturity, once they are gone, they are gone. Thats why in New Zealand  we have laws that make it damn hard to log native species. On the other hand we plant most of the country in pinus radiata which is a softwood and reaches maturity in 25 years. If its for paper production it is generally milled at 12 to 15 years to make high quality paper. We have a programme at the moment to plant 1 billion pine trees in the next 10 years. The government sells the forests to overseas bidders when they are ready for milling. But only the forest is sold, NOT the land that they grow on. So as you can see we have a lot fast maturing tree regeneration going on, I just guess we are lucky as a country because our climate is ideal for fast tree regrowth. The government is replanting native trees but that is a long term project. New Zealands largest native tree forest are on the West Coast of the South Island and up in Northland and as I said earlier are not for sale to anybody. The only wood that comes out of these forests are trees that have been knocked over by storms and the tree is cut up and helicoptered out so the native woods are extremely expensive but there is a market for it.

 

Pripyat is already industrialized to begin with, so any biodiversity lost has been lost before the Chernobyl event.

 

As for the New Zealand timber industry, it's good for you that you can maintain your trees, but it's so expensive. Selling only the trees that have been felled by storms, and helicoptering them out? It's much easier and cheaper to just lend, with interest, a chainsaw to a yam farmer and he can cut down 3 in a day. Imagine an entire continent of impoverished people with chainsaws, and you could see how quickly this can snowball.

And so little. New Zealand has ~70,000 km2 of forest, which is only a year's worth of timber for now, or even less since China is on a development boom and has decided that instead of cutting down its own forests it's way cheaper to simply illegally log from the Congo Basin or, in the future, the Amazon. Were it not for international politics logging would be way worse; for comparison 1800's England did not give a damn about environmentalism and only needed 25 years with 1800's technology to clear away 50,000 km2 of New Zealand's forests.

 

Reforestation is, of course, possible; nature can be tenacious like that. But there's more to a forest than just trees; there's the multiple layers of commensal plants, herbivores, carnivores, detritivores, and other creatures that make up a proper forest. And when the forest is gone, all those things take centuries to re-develop. Had reforestation been as easy and simple as trees, New Zealand wouldn't have gone so strict with their own forests in the first place.

 

View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 06:33 AM, said:

The climate issue is an emotional one, and i still get the feeling that there is a lot of fake science involved. I have studied a lot of science over the last 40 years and it pays to know the science of what is really involved and why. You get a lot of doomsayers screaming the end of the world or the end of civilization at the drop of a hat.

 

We all have our own feelings about this. As a guy who lives in the tropics and could feel the sweltering heat worsen over the decades by massive deforestation and, perhaps, even global warming, I'd naturally lean towards agreeing with the global warming folks. Because I feel it. Every day. It's a furnace out there. What you call a heat wave, we call it an average day.

I'd understand if, say, a Russian would think global warming is lovely because tundra sucks in its own special way, or how a temperate-climate person would not be bothered by a few degrees' rise in temperature because summer is more fun than winter, but then that's our own personal experiences that shape our own equally-valid opinions. And, as you imply, some opinions are more equal than others.

 

MFF has explained the effect of global warming sufficiently enough: food will become scarce before we could thaw out the tundra for farming. The more extreme weather conditions: heat waves, cold waves, El Nino, La Nina, will worsen. There will be droughts before there will be flooding. And most people won't notice those things unless they themselves are experiencing it.

 

View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 06:33 AM, said:

A good example is Chenobyle worts nuclear accident at the time in 1986 but notice the anti nuclear movement in the 1960's and 1970's saying one nuclear accident could wipe out mankind, it turned out it was just emotional claptrap, we are all still here. Then we had Fukushima, that was many times worse and we are all still here. They had a scare piece a few years ago about the all the radiation pouring out of the damaged reactors was going to make North America sterile from all the nuclear radiation poring out of the damaged reactors. Turns out whoever did the maths was way off in their calculations. So you learn to do the maths, dont take anything at face value. So North America is still there. 

 

My conclusion, the climate change and nuclear issues are emotional and involves lots of fake news and fake science.

 

Pretty much the same thing can be said about a nuclear war, its an emotional issue. At the end of the day there will always be survivors. Civilisation will keep on going, we probably wont have as an efficient civilization as we have now. We will probably have something like the 1920's. But we wont have caveman days again. The targets that were cities will just rapidly regenerate into forests of trees again that cannot be felled because the wood will lock up radioactive particles as well as carbon.

 

Nukes are an iffy story. So much promise, but all you needed was a technician doing an off-hours experiment and suddenly everyone had to evacuate an area 5 times the size of Christchurch. Remember that this was an incident not even the entire Soviet Union can keep secret; the best they can do is underreport the actual damage done and repress anyone saying otherwise. And what should've been a simple nuclear accident helped kill the second most powerful country of its day. Just one power plant.

 

It's somewhat like planes versus cars. Cars may kill more people per year than planes in the same way coal kills more people with pollution as compared to nukes, but at least you can walk out of a car crash. Not so likely in a plane crash. And not very likely either in a nuclear meltdown. As you said, it's all emotional; it's much more horrific to die by radiation than by lung carcinoma. But you can't simply rely on pure hard numbers and remove the emotional component of a policy decision, even if it's based on science. And even more so if the science agrees with the emotions.


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mttspiii #67 Posted 20 May 2019 - 05:21 PM

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Also, I'm surprised we haven't yet been red-penned for hijacking someone else's thread.

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southerner #68 Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:00 PM

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View Postmttspiii, on 20 May 2019 - 09:10 PM, said:

 

 

 

We all have our own feelings about this. As a guy who lives in the tropics and could feel the sweltering heat worsen over the decades by massive deforestation and, perhaps, even global warming, I'd naturally lean towards agreeing with the global warming folks. Because I feel it. Every day. It's a furnace out there. What you call a heat wave, we call it an average day.

I'd understand if, say, a Russian would think global warming is lovely because tundra sucks in its own special way, or how a temperate-climate person would not be bothered by a few degrees' rise in temperature because summer is more fun than winter, but then that's our own personal experiences that shape our own equally-valid opinions. And, as you imply, some opinions are more equal than others.

 

MFF has explained the effect of global warming sufficiently enough: food will become scarce before we could thaw out the tundra for farming. The more extreme weather conditions: heat waves, cold waves, El Nino, La Nina, will worsen. There will be droughts before there will be flooding. And most people won't notice those things unless they themselves are experiencing it.

 

 

 

 

 

I hear you on you living in the tropics. I live way down in Dunedin so we are lower down than the southern tip of Tasmania. lets see average temps today High is 12 degrees C and a low of 7 degrees C humidity is 82% and precipitation is 0%. I dunno how that compares where you live but a high for me is 20 degrees C and a heatwave is 5 days over 25 degrees C.

On the South islands West Coast where we get most of our rain dumped by the big highs coming off Australia and vacuming the water of the Tasman sea and dumping the rain on most of the west coast as the clouds collide and back up against the southern alps forcing the clouds to climb and releasing the water from the clouds as they are forced to climb over the alps. in some areas of the coast its common to get  downpours of nearly half a meter in 24 hours.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111518258/heavy-rain-in-south-island-a-significant-weather-event-metservice-says

 

The article says that 700mm of rain will fall and is called exceptional by us, but I guess some people if they heard that they would start building an ark.

 


Edited by southerner, 21 May 2019 - 07:04 AM.

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MagicalFlyingFox #69 Posted 20 May 2019 - 08:34 PM

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View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

I pulled this up where you said you couldn't find anything on the scare piece. I just asked teh right questions and pulled it up on google.

 

 

 

This is one of several fake science reports on the subject, These hoax's work is because too many people are willing jump on board and say we are all gonna die !!!????.

 

I say bulldust and just look for the facts.

 

So always remember, if you want to glow in the dark, eat more bananas :teethhappy:

 

Its just a map, that was misappropriated to manufacture outrage. It had no scientific basis. If anything, it further validates my point.

 

Fair enough for finding something though.

View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 07:10 PM, said:

 

Spoiler

 

All this really describes is what radioisotopes are released from a uranium power plant and what it decays to. 

 

Plus radiation in the air isn't dangerous to humans when it is spread over the ocean. It will just disperse. The real dangers of radiation is the immediate vicinity of the meltdown and, depending on the volume of material that is expelled into the air, where that plume ends up. Fortunately there's a whole bunch of the Pacific over there unlike Chernobyl where there was a whole lot of Europe, but any effects from this is not as significant as near ground zero.

 

 

In terms of radioactive foods, every single living organism is exposed to radioactive particles. Its impossible to avoid them. 

View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 10:00 PM, said:

 

 

I hear you on you living in the tropics. Ilive way down in Dunedin so we are lower down than the southern tip of Tasmania. lets see average temps today High is 12 degrees C and a low of 7 degrees C humidity is 82% and precipitation is 0%. I dunno how that compares where you live but a high for me is 20 degrees C and a heatwave is 5 days over 25 degrees C.

On the South islands West Coast where we get most of our rain dumped by the big highs coming off Australia and vacuming the water of the Tasman sea and dumping the rain on most of the west coasts as the clouds collide and back up against the southern alps forcing the clouds to climb and releasing the water from the clouds as they are forced to climb over the alps. in some areas of the coast its common to get  downpours of nearly half a meter in 24 hours.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111518258/heavy-rain-in-south-island-a-significant-weather-event-metservice-says

 

The article says that 700mm of rain will fall and is called exceptional by us, but I guess some people if they heard that they would start building an ark.

 

I'm in Sydney, and the concept of a 'winter' barely exists anymore. Last year we had what amounted to about 2 weeks of 'winter'. Average temperatures this year have seen records being set again for average highs. Its mid-May and we are still getting 24 degree days. Winter should technically start in 2 weeks.

 


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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


mttspiii #70 Posted 21 May 2019 - 12:22 AM

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View Postsoutherner, on 20 May 2019 - 07:00 PM, said:

 

 

I hear you on you living in the tropics. Ilive way down in Dunedin so we are lower down than the southern tip of Tasmania. lets see average temps today High is 12 degrees C and a low of 7 degrees C humidity is 82% and precipitation is 0%. I dunno how that compares where you live but a high for me is 20 degrees C and a heatwave is 5 days over 25 degrees C.

On the South islands West Coast where we get most of our rain dumped by the big highs coming off Australia and vacuming the water of the Tasman sea and dumping the rain on most of the west coasts as the clouds collide and back up against the southern alps forcing the clouds to climb and releasing the water from the clouds as they are forced to climb over the alps. in some areas of the coast its common to get  downpours of nearly half a meter in 24 hours.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111518258/heavy-rain-in-south-island-a-significant-weather-event-metservice-says

 

The article says that 700mm of rain will fall and is called exceptional by us, but I guess some people if they heard that they would start building an ark.

 

 

You should be so lucky, lucky lucky lucky.

 

Russians call 25oC a heatwave; that's one of our default air-conditioner settings (the other is 16oC for corporate because coats and computers are heatsinks).

It's 12 midnight here, and it's a balmy, comfy 30oC. Basically tropical paradise warmth, but then it's nighttime.

Aussies call 35oC a heatwave; that's standard summer temperatures.

When it does hit 40oC, the government might issue a reminder that it's hot. And not to lick the asphalt or something. A nice gesture, but ultimately unnecessary; we already know we're hot.

 

Humidity swings from 70-85%, which does exacerbate the heat index. Basically, sweating won't save us.


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southerner #71 Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:23 AM

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I got a friend of mine that works over at Port Headland in Australia. He is responsible for the rail tracks and upkeep. He works in the office luckily for him. But over there its one of the hottest places on Australias West Coast gets between 46 and 48 degrees C. Personally i would die in temps like that.

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/weather-records-set-to-tumble-with-temperatures-in-wa-tipped-to-hit-50c/news-story/88153fffae26219f7c3794770e19c68d

 

I wonder how people deal with those temps apart from air conditioning.


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Ezz #72 Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:47 AM

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Suspect it's very dry out that way. But not sure. My experience of 45+ was out in the middle of nowhere at a place called fowler's gap. Yet it was dry as a dead dog's donger. Despite feeling hot, you end up just sweating a ton and as long as you aren't doing anything strenuous you can cope. It was for uni field work and quite remarkably we mostly only drunk mid strength beer as the consensus was that full strength would basically end up dehydrating us too much. Very unlike other field trips we went on...

 

Also curious whether we've fixed the MM yet.


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MagicalFlyingFox #73 Posted 21 May 2019 - 02:58 PM

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View Postmttspiii, on 21 May 2019 - 03:22 AM, said:

 

You should be so lucky, lucky lucky lucky.

 

Russians call 25oC a heatwave; that's one of our default air-conditioner settings (the other is 16oC for corporate because coats and computers are heatsinks).

It's 12 midnight here, and it's a balmy, comfy 30oC. Basically tropical paradise warmth, but then it's nighttime.

Aussies call 35oC a heatwave; that's standard summer temperatures.

When it does hit 40oC, the government might issue a reminder that it's hot. And not to lick the asphalt or something. A nice gesture, but ultimately unnecessary; we already know we're hot.

 

Humidity swings from 70-85%, which does exacerbate the heat index. Basically, sweating won't save us.

 

At this point, 35 is standard summer temps and >40 is a heatwave, of which we are almost guaranteed a few weeks of every year. 


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mttspiii #74 Posted 21 May 2019 - 08:59 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 21 May 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

 

At this point, 35 is standard summer temps and >40 is a heatwave, of which we are almost guaranteed a few weeks of every year. 

 

Some parts of the world are more affected by global warming than the others. Something worth thinking about southerner?

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southerner #75 Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:18 PM

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yeah true, but im more concerned about idiots that do this and get away with it. But with local weather phenomina, its as it says local not global. You will get climate change in some areas colder other ares warmer, and in some areas no change at all. Dunedin is getting colder about 3 years ago we had huge iceburgs going past the otago harbour entrance. There was a lot of talk about  the blasted penguins going further north. We already have penguins and seals making Otago harbour and beaches their natural habitat. How often do you see people swimming in the water with stuff all on at the local beach and a penguin colony just down the beach ?

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12233671

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by southerner, 23 May 2019 - 03:30 PM.

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mttspiii #76 Posted 23 May 2019 - 07:07 PM

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Hm, icebergs broken off from a warming Antarctic floating off towards the nearest landmass, thus cooling said landmass locally as the iceberg melts. That's not supposed to happen.

 

I guess we both do agree that climate change is real, and that it has different effects on different places (a paradoxial relative cooling in other areas); we also agree on the reasons, but we disagree on the significance on one component of it, and thus disagree if we should act on it or not.

 

Curious though, what's your take on Freon?


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southerner #77 Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:40 AM

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The original fre0n 12 was a real bad gas to release into the atmosphere because it had strong covalent bonds bonding its molecules together. It had a particular affinity for trying to bond with 03 (ozone)trouble was to decouple one freon molecule it would decouple up to 1200 ozone oxygen.

 

Then they came up with freon 134a that was supposed to be inert, but it still reacted with the atmosphere. It was more expensive to buy.

 

I was a mechanic back then and one of our service jobs was to check and repair a cars air conditioning. freon was okay to work was because it was none flammable and we used the flame test to check by the colour of the flame what type of freon was in the  cars air conditioning circuit, But some shady operators used to use lpg as the refrigerant because it was cheaper and made the air conditioning more efficient. Only problem was if any other mechanic down the line did the air con check, would at best get singed eye brows or at worst bad burns.

 

Over the years freon has gone and more refrigerant gases have been introduced here is a list

 

freon 12

freon 134a

R507

R407F

R410A

R407C

R1234yf solstice   Used on new cars coming out in Europe and Asia

R448A   solstice    Used on low/medium pressure applications

 

So as you can see Air conditioning gases have evolved over the years


Edited by southerner, 24 May 2019 - 09:02 PM.

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mttspiii #78 Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:26 AM

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The best refrigerants were always the flammable ones. Ammonia, LPG. Even Greenpeace was supporting isobutane as refrigerant at some point.

OG Freon-12 is a definite cause of man-made global warming; banning it and forcing corporations to take "the environment" into account was so revolutionary and made so much sense that both Libs and Conservatives united to ban older CFC's.

Fast forward to today, as in this week, it turns out that massive amounts of older CFC's are still leaking out of mainland China. And they wonder why there are "furnace cities" as the Chinese call them.

 

We can perhaps agree now that yes, there is man-made global warming? At least, due to the sheer potency of refrigerants (oh the irony) in warming the Earth? The ozone hole is mostly closed now, but we've already let the sun's heat in during those ~50 years that it's been punched open and that has made some parts of Earth noticeably hotter.

 

Thing is, you don't have to accept the whole Day After Tomorrow scenario or much of what - or more importantly, when - a global warming doomsday will happen of course, the worst-case soonest-possible predictions have been proven wrong since we're still alive after all. Media hyping up the worst possible scenario for views only exacerbates the distrust towards established climate science, and that's likely why there's a lot more climate skeptics today than back then. Doesn't help that it's easy to feed that mistrust too.

 

Personal opinion is to not worry too much about the weather; the worst of it will not happen in our lifetimes after all; however it's our responsibility to leave the future generation some wiggle space just in case Earth does heat up, with or without us contributing significantly to it.


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southerner #79 Posted 25 May 2019 - 10:03 AM

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And that mttspiii in a nut shell is the problem...... Media Hype. A lot of us are old enough to figure out that bad news is what sells  and makes people watch media. The big ozone hole was over antarctica that let in a lot of solar radiation mainly in the form of ultraviolet radiation. From what i understand that hole is almost gone now. And as you say Chinese industry has opened another one over China.

 

As for flammable refrigerants, some of the new ones are flammable because they have a large hydrocarbon content in them. So thats going to be real interesting in a motor vehicle accident. But new refrigerants are here to stay because the price of old refrigerants is getting prohibitive. A 13.4 Kg bottle of freon 134a now costs $1200.00 plus 16% GST in New Zealand now, so it is much cheaper to convert older cars air conditioning system to the newer refrigerants. So cost alone should drive most of the old refrigerants off the market where countries have the legislation to do so. How do you know which refrigerant your car uses ? There is usually a sticker stuck either under the engine hood or on the drivers door pillar. It is there for a safety reason. So if there is an accident first responders know what type of gas they are dealing with. Ditto for the mechanics servicing the vehicles as well.

 

The other thing with supposed global warming is the oceans are massive heat sinks that soak up a lot of solar heat and they act as a buffer. The deep ocean is very cold. here is an interesting article about temperature at various ocean depths and thermoclines. Basically the sure of the oceans undergoes temperature change with an average mean temperature world wide (average temperature of all temperatures together and finding at he average middle temp) the highs and lows are the Persian gulf 36 degrees C and the arctic and antarctic at -2 Degrees C. The deep ocean is at 3 Degrees C and hardly ever changes. But here is the article it has some good solid science.

 

https://www.enn.com/articles/41816-deep-ocean-temperatures

 

There are many levels in the ocean. In some places it is very deep while in other sites there is only the shallow continental shelf. There have been several reports on global warming in terms of land and surface water temperature, Now come reports from deeper depths. Scientists analyzing measurements taken in the deep ocean around the globe over the past two decades find a warming trend that contributes to sea level rise, especially around Antarctica.

There are many levels in the ocean. In some places it is very deep while in other sites there is only the shallow continental shelf. There have been several reports on global warming in terms of land and surface water temperature, Now come reports from deeper depths. Scientists analyzing measurements taken in the deep ocean around the globe over the past two decades find a warming trend that contributes to sea level rise, especially around Antarctica.

!ADVERTISEMENT!

Global warming is occurring. Over the past few decades, at least 80 percent of this heat energy has gone into the ocean, warming it in the process.

If you want to know about the temperature of the ocean, you have to learn about the parts of the the ocean first. The top part of the ocean is called the surface layer. Then there is a boundary layer called the thermocline. The thermocline separates the surface layers and the deep water of the ocean. The deep ocean is the third part of the ocean.

The Sun hits the surface layer of the ocean, heating the water up. Wind and waves mix this layer up from top to bottom, so the heat gets mixed downward too. The temperature of the surface waters varies mainly with latitude. The polar seas (high latitude) can be as cold as -2 degrees Celsius (28.4 degrees Fahrenheit) while the Persian Gulf (low latitude) can be as warm as 36 degrees Celsius (96.8 degrees Fahrenheit). The average temperature of the ocean surface waters is about 17 degrees Celsius (62.6 degrees Fahrenheit).

90 % of the total volume of ocean is found below the thermocline in the deep ocean. The deep ocean is not well mixed. The deep ocean is made up of horizontal layers of equal density. Much of this deep ocean water is between 0-3 degrees Celsius (32-37.5 degrees Fahrenheit)!

"Previous studies have shown that the upper ocean is warming, but our analysis determines how much additional heat the deep ocean is storing from warming observed all the way to the ocean floor," said Sarah Purkey, an oceanographer at the University of Washington and lead author of the new study.

This study shows that the deep ocean – below about 3,300 feet – is taking up about 16 percent of what the upper ocean is absorbing. The authors note that there are several possible causes for this deep warming: a shift in Southern Ocean winds, a change in the density of what is called Antarctic Bottom Water, or how quickly that bottom water is formed near the Antarctic, where it sinks to fill the deepest, coldest portions of the ocean around much of the globe.

The scientists found the strongest deep warming around Antarctica, weakening with distance from its source as it spreads around the globe. While the temperature increases are small (about 0.03°C per decade in the deep Southern Ocean, less elsewhere), the large volume of the ocean over which they are found and the high capacity of water to absorb heat means that this warming accounts for a huge amount of energy storage. If this deep ocean heating were going into the atmosphere instead – a physical impossibility – it would be warming at a rate of about 3°C (over 5°F) per decade.

Purkey and Johnson note that deep warming of the Southern Ocean accounts for about 1.2 mm (about 1/20th of an inch) per year of the sea level rise around Antarctica in the past few decades.

The highly accurate deep-ocean temperature observations used in this study come from ship-based instruments that measure conductivity through salinity, temperature and depth. These measurements were taken on a series of hydrographic surveys of the global ocean in the 1990s through the World Ocean Circulation Experiment and in the 2000s in support of the Climate Variability program.

For further information:http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2010/20100920_oceanwarming.html

------------------------------------------------

I would say that  Planet Earths climate is a highly complex interwoven mechanism. I dont think we have discovered all there is to know what there is to know about climate. Does it oscillate ? changing back and forth over centuries and thousands of years. An over geologic time measured in the 100's thousand years to millions of years. Or does it do slow change over these time periods. Sure there have been rapid changes from asteroid strikes and major volcanic events and thousands of years later the climate recovers. Long term for our generation Climate change will be interesting for our 10 generation after us. We will be  long gone but it depends if our generation will be cursed or praised by those that come after us.


Edited by southerner, 25 May 2019 - 10:18 AM.

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southerner #80 Posted 08 June 2019 - 09:11 AM

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Here is a handy you tube vid on  the subject

 


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