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Changes for CW, Campaigns and Advances.


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HoPeY_ #1 Posted 24 July 2019 - 08:23 PM

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These modes seem stuck in the mud, weak and medium clans getting little reward, good clans just getting stuff for little effort.

 

Tonight was a good example for me about the feeling of clans. Someone asked we doing advances, only a top team sitting there waiting to whoop us. We didn't bother.

 

A serious look needs to be done to give more equal opponents. Take for example the last campaign. Why not have a left to right large map area, good clans fighting towards the right. No more mapping and coming back to milk just head right for more rewards, This would leave weaker clans on the left mainly fighting equal opponents and actually getting the odd owner battle against a non top 3 clan.

 

I understand it's all up to mother Russia etc, but if you want clans to enjoy the game, build etc something has to change for this server.



Napalmer #2 Posted 24 July 2019 - 08:48 PM

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Little effort? You call staying up for at least 6 hours every night for a week 'little effort'?

You call having to call most of those games against the other top clans 'little effort'?

 

I saw plenty of medium sized clans get rewards last campaign, if they showed teamwork, skill and experience.

 

As for whining about advances, it's most likely that most other than TEAL are likely still burnt out from campaign. I for one haven't touched advances at all.

In any case, why should you complain that you have to fight a good clan - it's good experience and you probably didn't get to fight them that much during campaign, thanks to the ELO system. Perhaps you could learn from your mistakes? Or maybe you just prefer a participation prize?

 

This leads into your next point. You already have ELO protection, what else do you want? You want a safe haven where clans with no experience can use tactics that really shouldn't work and still win. I agree that we should encourage smaller clans to participate. What I don't approve of is giving them a large chunk of the map they really don't deserve, and ensuring that nobody can take it from them. (You're basically hinting the old tier 6/8 maps).

Even if clans only earn gold from say 12 provinces, they won't just sit on them. They will expand out and move 'left' in your world, taking less land away from the 'not good clans' (your words)

 

If you want 'fair' games for some good prizes, play War Games on the weekend (Advances). You get ELO protection and even inexperienced clans can get some good gold by winning games.


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HoPeY_ #3 Posted 24 July 2019 - 08:55 PM

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Now stop and try and see it from the smaller clans point of view.

 

I'm throwing up ideas, what we have ATM sucks.


Edited by HoPeY_, 24 July 2019 - 08:59 PM.


HoPeY_ #4 Posted 24 July 2019 - 09:09 PM

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View PostNapalmer, on 24 July 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

Little effort? You call staying up for at least 6 hours every night for a week 'little effort'?

 

A lot of us put in the same effort and got very little in return.

 

You call having to call most of those games against the other top clans 'little effort'?

 

But you also got to beat up small clans in 279e's hey. That hard?

 

I saw plenty of medium sized clans get rewards last campaign, if they showed teamwork, skill and experience.

 

I saw a couple do fine. Most did not.

 

As for whining about advances, it's most likely that most other than TEAL are likely still burnt out from campaign. I for one haven't touched advances at all.

In any case, why should you complain that you have to fight a good clan - it's good experience and you probably didn't get to fight them that much during campaign, thanks to the ELO system. Perhaps you could learn from your mistakes? Or maybe you just prefer a participation prize?

 

I don't want to get gud... I want to learn off slightly better clans. There is nothing to learn off a 279 rush except it would be nice if our clan could get 279's etc etc

 

This leads into your next point. You already have ELO protection, what else do you want? You want a safe haven where clans with no experience can use tactics that really shouldn't work and still win. I agree that we should encourage smaller clans to participate. What I don't approve of is giving them a large chunk of the map they really don't deserve, and ensuring that nobody can take it from them. (You're basically hinting the old tier 6/8 maps).

Even if clans only earn gold from say 12 provinces, they won't just sit on them. They will expand out and move 'left' in your world, taking less land away from the 'not good clans' (your words)

 

ELO protection affects 1 game per landing. Second game could be TEAL. Map is just an idea. Open to other ideas.

 

If you want 'fair' games for some good prizes, play War Games on the weekend (Advances). You get ELO protection and even inexperienced clans can get some good gold by winning games.

 

We try.

 



Twit_ #5 Posted 24 July 2019 - 11:34 PM

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View PostHoPeY_, on 24 July 2019 - 08:23 PM, said:

These modes seem stuck in the mud, weak and medium clans getting little reward, good clans just getting stuff for little effort.

 

Tonight was a good example for me about the feeling of clans. Someone asked we doing advances, only a top team sitting there waiting to whoop us. We didn't bother.

 

A serious look needs to be done to give more equal opponents. Take for example the last campaign. Why not have a left to right large map area, good clans fighting towards the right. No more mapping and coming back to milk just head right for more rewards, This would leave weaker clans on the left mainly fighting equal opponents and actually getting the odd owner battle against a non top 3 clan.

 

I understand it's all up to mother Russia etc, but if you want clans to enjoy the game, build etc something has to change for this server.

 

  1. The modes are not stuck in the mud. In regards to campaigns and other global map events WG is listening to feedback to improve the experience to those most invested in the mode. Advances have not been changed for a while because the mode works. Clan wars are of course a competition between others and it should reward those that strive to improve and become the best, be it strongholds or the GM. 

    Block Quote

     good clans just getting stuff for little effort

     That is seriously wrong on so many levels. Clans like teal constantly play advances to improve and get better or maintain their level above the rest. My clan does advances nightly now the CP is over, regardless if we win or lose because it is how we improve. On the global map, the top clans had to put hours of play time and planning into trying to get their members tanks. I know I was up for 3 hours beforehand planning games for my clan, which is why its important to WIN and improve so that mistakes don't affect others in the clan, whatever reward that may be.

  2. In regards to anz advances. All I see is complaining really. There is a wealth of anz clans that are easily capable of fielding a team for the tz but choose not to. Its a shame that all the anz clans save advances for wargames, because if they showed up at least more than 2 times a week then there would be a more competitive compared to right now. literally there are only 3-4 clans that I can name off the top of my head that do regular anz advances: YETI, TEAL, DADDY and -1AR-. So when the weaker anz clan shows up for their weekly advance, they get treated with shit MM because there are not enough people playing in the first place. 

  3. Block Quote

     A serious look needs to be done to give more equal opponents. Take for example the last campaign. Why not have a left to right large map area, good clans fighting towards the right. No more mapping and coming back to milk just head right for more rewards, This would leave weaker clans on the left mainly fighting equal opponents and actually getting the odd owner battle against a non top 3 clan.

     What do you mean? The elo and XP based system in landing tournaments already weights opponents as equally as possible. In fact the current system hurts stronger clans that want games because they get a bye first round. You have a lot of ideas about how CW should be run but it doesn't look like you have given them to your clan reps because they have not raised the topic at all in the clan rep discord.

  4. Block Quote

     I understand it's all up to mother Russia etc, but if you want clans to enjoy the game, build etc something has to change for this server.

     Sure its up to HQ to make decisions on CW but they make those decisions on the advice of the relevant server clusters to find out what worked and what didn't. Don't generalise weaker clans as every clan... not everyone shares your opinion. And if that were the case, all I have seen is ex TBS1 complaining about the CW format.

     


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HoPeY_ #6 Posted 24 July 2019 - 11:49 PM

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View PostTwit_, on 24 July 2019 - 11:34 PM, said:

 

The modes are not stuck in the mud. In regards to campaigns and other global map events WG is listening to feedback to improve the experience to those most invested in the mode. Advances have not been changed for a while because the mode works. Clan wars are of course a competition between others and it should reward those that strive to improve and become the best, be it strongholds or the GM. 

 

Who do they listen to? Can't say my player experience is improving sorry. To the point I'm close to walking away.

 

 That is seriously wrong on so many levels. Clans like teal constantly play advances to improve and get better or maintain their level above the rest. My clan does advances nightly now the CP is over, regardless if we win or lose because it is how we improve. On the global map, the top clans had to put hours of play time and planning into trying to get their members tanks. I know I was up for 3 hours beforehand planning games for my clan, which is why its important to WIN and improve so that mistakes don't affect others in the clan, whatever reward that may be.

In regards to anz advances. All I see is complaining really. There is a wealth of anz clans that are easily capable of fielding a team for the tz but choose not to. Its a shame that all the anz clans save advances for wargames, because if they showed up at least more than 2 times a week then there would be a more competitive compared to right now. literally there are only 3-4 clans that I can name off the top of my head that do regular anz advances: YETI, TEAL, DADDY and -1AR-. So when the weaker anz clan shows up for their weekly advance, they get treated with shit MM because there are not enough people playing in the first place. 

 

Was a throw off comment.  But more needs to be done to encourage teams to try... and to ME protect weaker clans to keep trying.

 

 What do you mean? The elo and XP based system in landing tournaments already weights opponents as equally as possible. In fact the current system hurts stronger clans that want games because they get a bye first round. You have a lot of ideas about how CW should be run but it doesn't look like you have given them to your clan reps because they have not raised the topic at all in the clan rep discord.

 Sure its up to HQ to make decisions on CW but they make those decisions on the advice of the relevant server clusters to find out what worked and what didn't. Don't generalise weaker clans as every clan... not everyone shares your opinion. And if that were the case, all I have seen is ex TBS1 complaining about the CW format.

 

Umm, these are MY opinions. Shit is wrong... Needs fixing.

 

 



HoPeY_ #7 Posted 25 July 2019 - 12:16 AM

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Both commentators so far won or were eligible for tanks last Campaign... So happy.

 

Do those who miss out comment?



mttspiii #8 Posted 25 July 2019 - 12:43 AM

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View PostHoPeY_, on 25 July 2019 - 12:16 AM, said:

Both commentators so far won or were eligible for tanks last Campaign... So happy.

 

Do those who miss out comment?

 

I missed out on the tanks despite having joined the recent campaign, and since I was asked for a comment, I would like to say that Kylie Minogue's got a new compilation album and, apart from me not having the willingness to buy it, it is awesome.


Edited by mttspiii, 25 July 2019 - 12:44 AM.

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Twit_ #9 Posted 25 July 2019 - 12:57 AM

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Block Quote

 Who do they listen to? Can't say my player experience is improving sorry. To the point I'm close to walking away.

 

I think the experience is improving. But I look at things from less of a player perspective back then and now CW management perspective now. I think it is improving, you might not like some changes but I definitely think it makes the end game content a more valuable experience.

Block Quote

 But more needs to be done to encourage teams to try... and to ME protect weaker clans to keep trying.

 

The elo system in advances is literally there to protect weaker clans form being matched against much stronger opponents. But when nobody plays, that system can't fairly match teams together so there isn't much to be gained. If more ANZ clans were consistent in playing competitive CW and not just focus exclusively on the Global Map would be matched up against clans that are similar to SABRE's calibre, ie REIGN, SWAN, RNS ENVY etc. Its not like this only hurts smaller clans. YETI, TEAL and sometimes other clans tech advances because there are not enough opponents in the system; and they are just as much frustrated as anyone else.

 

View PostHoPeY_, on 25 July 2019 - 12:16 AM, said:

Both commentators so far won or were eligible for tanks last Campaign... So happy.

 

Do those who miss out comment?

 

My first CP I barely got in the top 1250. This CP I halved my ranking, because our clan sought to improve and win what we could with the limited resources we had. I can't say much for Napalmer but I doubt he was happy the moment the T95E6 wasn't in the tank pool :D


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HoPeY_ #10 Posted 25 July 2019 - 01:22 AM

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Fair comments Twit, thanks.

Vindictus_Maximus #11 Posted 25 July 2019 - 07:38 AM

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Has anyone noticed how many small clans there are out there that do not do any clan war activity at all? Many of them were once very active back in the tier6 CWs days.

 

They need to find a way to make clanwar activity feasable and attractive to these smaller clans. Also, they need to make it plausible to be able to form your own clan in such a way that it will actually attract members and survive.

 

Strongholds are Skirmishes are basically only of interest in active clans that want to practice, it holds no interest for small clans that would struggle to field a 10 player team anyway. And even if you do, you might sit there for 5 minutes waiting for a game, and players drop out, then everyone else drops out, and they never try again because they consider it a waste of time. Tournaments are boring and frankly I cant understand why they persist.

 

The Elephant in the room, in my opinion, was when they killed off the tier6 clans it was a the beginning of a slow death of the clan culture. Now each season another clan dies, and the rest eat each other for the remaining participants.

 

If they bring back clan competition for the small social clans, wargaming will find their fortunes reversed, there will be more enthusiasm for the newer players, more people will be logging on and suddenly more active clans. And more money in the end for wargaming - a win/win.

 

There is science behind social cohesion systems in online gaming, there is a business reason why most gaming companies push them. The problem, at least on the NA server, was the same people are running the clan wars, the same people running it into the ground, they know it was a huge mistake to get rid of tier6 clanwars and too proud to swallow thier pride and get back to their roots. Any any threads like this were just pointless, its a shame.

 

 



Ezz #12 Posted 25 July 2019 - 08:25 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 25 July 2019 - 09:38 AM, said:

The Elephant in the room, in my opinion, was when they killed off the tier6 clans it was a the beginning of a slow death of the clan culture.

It would be an elephant if it weren't for the fact the clan culture went into decline well before that. As it is consolidating CW to the upper tiers was just another attempt by WG to improve things from a competition standpoint, from a meta standpoint and for WG themselves.


Edited by Ezz, 25 July 2019 - 08:27 AM.

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pr154 #13 Posted 25 July 2019 - 08:25 AM

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I think the answer to most of the issues is a community-driven solution rather than turning the game mode on its head. The ELO system works for off-season fights provided enough clans get up. This is heavily reliant on outstanding community members organising their clanmates into tanks and populating those detachment lists, and coordinating with each other in the spirit of friendly competition. Unfortunately this job is made so much harder when there is so much content available in World of Tanks right now. Stronghold organisers are having to drag players still burnt out from Fire Trail away from other shiny objects like Frontlines (and very soon Homefront). 

 

If I could suggest any change to the Stronghold format, it'd be granting industrial resource to clans who queue for 10mins as a "Technical Victory" payment plus a sweetener of personal credits to compensate for time that would be otherwise spent in a Random Battle might also be beneficial. Let's say 50IR and 5,000 credits for Tier VI and 100IR and 5,000 Credits for Tier VIII. 50IR or 100IR might not seem like much to a clan that routinely runs advances, but for a developing clan emerging into the competitive sphere (and lord knows we need more of them), that kind of reliable box injection can pay for boosters and combat reserves otherwise out of reach. Between that and the credits, developing clans and their members should be reasonably incentivised to have a crack at entry-level competition.

If I could suggest any change to the Global Map format, I'd suggest ELO filtration to access a three-tiered map structure, eg:
- ELO <800 - Large Map - Gold pool accounts for 20% of Daily Gold/Fame
- ELO 801-1200 - Medium Map - Gold pool accounts for 30% of Daily Gold/Fame

- ELO 1201> - Small Map - Gold pool accounts for 50% of Daily Gold/Fame

ELO filtration keeps peers fighting peers across a whole front, until they're ready for their next challenge

Gold pool rising by ELO encourages aspiration to improve, and dissuades high-ELO clans from manipulating ELO to drop-and-stomp

Developing clans that ascend to the 801-1200ELO front will have opportunity to earn greater glory or learn a hard lesson against superior (but not that superior) clans

Superior clans that ascend to the 1201+ front enjoy continued accumulation of wealth while fighting the best the server has to offer at all times in close quarters, discouraging static play


Edited by pr154, 25 July 2019 - 01:32 PM.


HoPeY_ #14 Posted 25 July 2019 - 08:45 AM

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Some things that make clans struggle during the campaign:

 

Tier 9/10 tanks only. Tier 8 should have been allowed. Lots of clan members are forced to twiddle their thumbs during these events.

 

The idea of having too many battles. So many times we needed to lose a battle to avoid multiple battles and penalties. These can even come unexpectedly due to clans in the pool drawing, tech loss etc.

 

 



AlexTheKid72 #15 Posted 25 July 2019 - 02:39 PM

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The mapping and going back to sealclub is problematic. It's a sound tactic for top clans sure - prevent the competition from getting a foot in the door. But when you can increase your position by going back and playing in the kiddies pool I call bullshit.There is a reason games like They Are Billions return half resources on destruction of a building. It is very much no risk all reward to map and start again on the basic front. That's an open exploit.
 
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AlexTheKid72 #16 Posted 25 July 2019 - 02:43 PM

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And you realise us "mediocre" clans will debate over whether  we stay on basic or move to the 3ft deep pool. Meanwhile top clans are actually fighting each other for first on the elite front, making more than we ever could on the basic front.

At the moment it's "no fun for you". If you want to map and go back to basic, there should be a cost. 


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View PostHoPeY_, on 25 July 2019 - 12:45 PM, said:

Some things that make clans struggle during the campaign:

 

Tier 9/10 tanks only. Tier 8 should have been allowed. Lots of clan members are forced to twiddle their thumbs during these events.

 

The idea of having too many battles. So many times we needed to lose a battle to avoid multiple battles and penalties. These can even come unexpectedly due to clans in the pool drawing, tech loss etc.

the idea of to many battles, becomes not your issue, but clan organisers/officers, i know so many different clans who's exect team spent hours each day, before battles even happened, organising and setting up the nights events/preparing for eventualities like over booking games/no games at all.

 

yes, because totally balanced having an is3a or a defender, against 140s, is7s, MAUS, and every other tec tree Tier X that will completely *jacks off* on the tier 8s. 

no, hek no,.

expletive no.

 

tier 9s is great, because atleast the majority of the tier have similar gun capabilities (alpha and heat/apcr Pen) only worse in the armor (barely depending on the tank) or the obv HP pool difference.

 

but hey, if you want to, ill gladly invite you to a 1V1 training room so you can see the rather sillyness of any of the tier 8 regular tanks (and basically all tier 8 premiums that would have practicality in a CW format) versus almost any of the Tier X tanks. (and this is before you get to any of the reward CW/Personal Mission stuff) SMH

 

 

I know for a fact, 2AR, a clan trying out campaigns for the first time in a Long time. were using Tier 9s, because they were short tier Xs sometimes. and they did well. (regardless of overal position or as you love to point out - personal positions) 

 

No to Tier 6CWs, clans sit there, without battle, and without REAL progress through techtrees, Tier 8 is barely fine, because a quick trip to the prem store will outplay any regular tank at tier 8 atmo.

 

 

yes there are issues with CWs but regressing back to systems that really.... really....REALLY DID NOT WORK(SHOW PROGRESSION) is the biggest absolute (insert remark regarding to back intellectual tastes) idea of progress and change iv ever seen in this servers forums since i started playing this game.

 

 

we love you hopey, but stop trying to be the "heretic Catholic" pressing your ideas as the only possible ideology 


Edited by SLAV_ROBIN, 25 July 2019 - 03:54 PM.

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HoPeY_ #18 Posted 25 July 2019 - 05:01 PM

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Actually if you meet a similar team tier 8's would be fine. Cause they'd have them too. This is how it use to be, tier 10 CW but any tier fine. Got people involved, then grinding.

HoPeY_ #19 Posted 25 July 2019 - 05:06 PM

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Block Quote

the idea of to many battles, becomes not your issue, but clan organisers/officers, i know so many different clans who's exect team spent hours each day, before battles even happened, organising and setting up the nights events/preparing for eventualities like over booking games/no games at all.

 

I booked most of the battles. Becomes a fine line between going for points, too active, too few battles etc. But it is disappointing for the group having to lose battles. I don't know how to fix this.

SLAV_ROBIN #20 Posted 25 July 2019 - 06:52 PM

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View PostHoPeY_, on 25 July 2019 - 09:01 PM, said:

Actually if you meet a similar team tier 8's would be fine. Cause they'd have them too. This is how it use to be, tier 10 CW but any tier fine. Got people involved, then grinding.

Lol, fine then. Lets take tier 6s into tier8 cws this season then hopey. Does this not seem a bit silly? (proves my point though, no clan would actually handicap themselves like that....) seriously. Not progressive thinking still hopey. :\


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