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Disband Inactive Clans

disband inactive clans dangerous ideas skirmish advances global map clan wars

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pr154 #1 Posted 31 July 2019 - 09:13 AM

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WARNING: DANGEROUS IDEAS AHEAD

 

When you command a clan, you sign a social contract with your members to act in their best interests and do whatever you can (whether by direct action or delegation) to keep the clan active. Key to this activity is the progressive skills development that comes with regular participation in the Clan Modes of the game, such as Skirmish, Advances and Global Map Events / Clan Wars.

 

Is it unreasonable to ask that a condition of the clans ongoing existence is to run a Stronghold or Global Map detachment at least once every 28 days? At the very least, this would keep players genuinely interested in Clan vs Clan game modes reticulating towards clans that support an active clan community, rather than blindingly hanging onto an aloof Clan Commander hoping that things will change for their clan.



Warhammer124 #2 Posted 31 July 2019 - 09:15 AM

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1. Why disband them? Why can't the player just leave the clan if he feels its inactive?

 

2. What about clans that don't do clan battles? (social clans etc)

 

3. What about clans that are just starting out? (Typically the commander would probably be trying to get his friends in, then they'd build up after that.)

 

4. Commander should receive his credits/gold back in that case, if his clan will be deleted.


Edited by Warhammer124, 31 July 2019 - 09:17 AM.

Hippity Hoppity no drama lords on my property 

pr154 #3 Posted 31 July 2019 - 09:22 AM

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View PostWarhammer124, on 31 July 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

1. Why disband them? Why can't the player just leave the clan if he feels its inactive?

2. What about clans that don't do clan battles? (social clans etc)

3. What about clans that are just starting out? (Typically the commander would probably be trying to get his friends in, then they'd build up after that.)

4. Commander should receive his credits/gold back in that case, if his clan will be deleted.

 

Thanks for kicking off the discussion Warhammer! 


1. I believe there is a surplus of potential contributors to the Clan Community who are locked up by inactive clans, generally out of a perverse sense of loyalty or waiting for Clan Officers to take some initiative and make something happen
2. Why this idea is dangerous, but I personally don't understand the practical application of having a clan purely for Random Games 
3. You only need two members for a Tier VI Skirmish detachment - I don't think this will be a difficult detail to achieve
4. A fair and reasonable outcome, I would agree re: Founding Gold/Credits - Other resources are more difficult, particularly if nobodys seen the Commander for months


Edited by pr154, 31 July 2019 - 09:29 AM.


Ezz #4 Posted 31 July 2019 - 09:35 AM

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You do realise clans aren't just about being competitive right? There are many positives to clans beyond CW etc..

 

And you do realise players are free to leave clans right? As in if people choose to be in a clan that isn't doing competitive stuff. Why kill all the good aspects of being in clan just to cycle a few players who don't haven't worked out how to leave a clan?

View Postpr154, on 31 July 2019 - 11:22 AM, said:

 

Thanks for kicking off the discussion Warhammer! 


1. I believe there is a surplus of potential contributors to the Clan Community who are locked up by inactive clans, generally out of a perverse sense of loyalty or waiting for Clan Officers to take some initiative and make something happen
2. Why this idea is dangerous, but I personally don't understand the practical application of having a clan purely for Random Games 
3. You only need two members for a Tier VI Skirmish detachment - I don't think this will be a difficult detail to achieve
4. A fair and reasonable outcome, I would agree re: Founding Gold/Credits - Other resources are more difficult, particularly if nobodys seen the Commander for months

1. they aren't locked up. They just would rather stay in their clan that is inactive than go finding a new clan with who knows whatever other drama / officers / players to have to deal with.

2. really? You don't see ANY other aspects of being in a clan? Inadvertently says a lot about reign i guess.

3. you need 2 members who see the value in detachments.

4. MAKE IT HAPPEN!!! Zee goldz will be mine!!!!

 


Edited by Ezz, 31 July 2019 - 09:39 AM.

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spacewolf #5 Posted 31 July 2019 - 09:40 AM

    I still think it's morally wrong so in fact I'm right.

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I feel this is a blatant attack on the Mighty PBKAC, and as such wall deck you. Or I would, if I gave a shit and would have backing from our inactive clan. Both those last points are in the negative though. 

 

Your definition of "inactive" may not very well be the purpose of all clans. Indeed, KAC's sole purpose is to completely dominate the tier 4 global map - which I must point out is still as yet unchallenged by any other clan.

 

As for advances etc - yea nah, we don't do that shit. But then our members don't want to. We jump on, play a game or 2, listen to Siggy question his will to live, try to work out how to kick Feet, and then rage quit. Those are KAC's reasons for being.

 

To me, a clan exists for like minded individuals. If a player doesn't fit, or if the clan isn't right, you change something. No need to punish anyone else, just get yourself or the player in question out. Simple. 

 


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stewiejp #6 Posted 31 July 2019 - 10:07 AM

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I like how you are thinking pr154, but like it or not - there are a lot of clans out there which are simply social clubs, and have no interest in CWs (including skirmishes etc). They are simply interested in the social side of tanks which is fine, or tournaments etc.

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pr154 #7 Posted 31 July 2019 - 10:13 AM

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Thanks Ezz / Spacewolf, I was particularly keen to understand PBKAC's position on this, but certainly not out of intention to blatantly attack the KAC's. In fact I can see the KAC's extremely active history, and reading between the lines of your other contributions I get the impression that there would be a willingness to reactivate for the right game mode (even Tier IV Clan Wars :medal:)
 

Pushing that "Leave Clan" button is simple enough and comes easy to some, but not so much to others. In my regular recruiting drive I've often found a fear of ostracisation by their former members (founded or not) to be a key motivator to remain. I do take your point about the potential for drama, but I've not had that conveyed to me as anyone's reason to stay.

 

I expect our definition of Activity does say alot about REIGN, and I certainly hope it does. We made the decision many moons ago that that's the sort of clan we wanted to be, taking on players who would be active contributors to clan life and aspire to improve their game. Are we bloodthirsty competitors? No... Did we win all the Clan Wars? Also no... Is there measured improvement in our game from season to season? Absolutely

 

Fundamentally this dangerous idea comes from a belief that we have a problem with Stronghold activity, particularly among the ANZ clans. We need more able-bodied clans populating those detachment lists and providing a broader spectrum of ability to ensure peers are matched with peers, steadily growing and learning from mistakes against the next tier of fighter, rather than having to experiment with how well a pineapple fits in their [editeds].


Edited by pr154, 31 July 2019 - 10:23 AM.


Ezz #8 Posted 31 July 2019 - 10:24 AM

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If you want dangerous, why not take it a step further then for the next campaign... any clan not capable of fielding multiple teams can't compete. Would force the smaller clans to merge and hence give them more of a chance. This way you will only impact the clans intending to be competitive without impacting social clans. It may even stop some of the 'but i tried really hard and didn't win anything' posts.


Edited by Ezz, 31 July 2019 - 10:47 AM.

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Nishizumi_Miho_SG #9 Posted 31 July 2019 - 10:32 AM

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Profanisaurus #10 Posted 31 July 2019 - 10:40 AM

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pr154 #11 Posted 31 July 2019 - 10:55 AM

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View PostEzz, on 31 July 2019 - 12:24 PM, said:

If you want dangerous, why not take it a step further then for the next campaign... any clan not capable of fielding multiple teams can't compete. 

 

I believe it's already set that you need a minimum of 10 Tier-X Capable members to join a Campaign. Increasing that to 20 shouldn't take much dev work (the usual obstruction to implementing dangerous ideas) but I'm not confident that such an increase would cause the necessary movements. Even the lowest-placing clan in Fire Trail has almost 200 Tier-X tanks, and since at 92 on the Clan Leaderboard. Availability of tanks isn't the issue, it's consolidating the players who are keen to participate but are stifled by an aloof and indifferent clan command.

 

Either way, for those clans who want to avoid a disband under this dangerous idea, is one Tier VI Skirmish every 28 days seriously going to kill anyone? I'd say it's a small inconvenience for the ability to continue to call themselves a World of Tanks Clan.


Edited by pr154, 31 July 2019 - 11:07 AM.


LeSigh #12 Posted 31 July 2019 - 11:10 AM

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The A for Apathy in pbkAc would be horribly undermined. 

 

I still don't understand why people just wouldn't leave if they are unhappy with the situation. We regularly lose the less apathetic members of KAC to bouts of activity although they know they are welcome back when apathy hits again. If people are stupid enough to choose to miss out on rewards because they have decided time spent in a clan is more important surely that is an individual's problem not the clan's problem.


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Ezz #13 Posted 31 July 2019 - 11:22 AM

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The thing is, players aren't locked up. They are their by their own volition. You would literally be screwing over a shit load of clans for what, 5% of those players who may actually want to be in a competitive clan but for some reason couldn't work out that they weren't?

 

If WG cared about this that much they could simply allow players to fight for other clans. It would of course turn the whole concept of clan wars on its head, but hey, at least all those locked up players could get a go.


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pr154 #14 Posted 31 July 2019 - 11:23 AM

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View PostLeSigh, on 31 July 2019 - 01:10 PM, said:

I still don't understand why people just wouldn't leave if they are unhappy with the situation. We regularly lose the less apathetic members of KAC to bouts of activity although they know they are welcome back when apathy hits again. If people are stupid enough to choose to miss out on rewards because they have decided time spent in a clan is more important surely that is an individual's problem not the clan's problem.

 

My concern is for those players who don't know what they're missing. In my experience the promotion of other game modes has been driven by the Clan Command rather than looking up the WoT News Website / WoT Discord etc. on a premonition that there's something else on the table besides getting doinked by gumbies in Random Battles over and over again.

 

On the other hand it's great that the KAC's offer a guilt-free prospect of return - Many clans don't, and these are the ones who hold their members and aspirations of better play hostage



spacewolf #15 Posted 31 July 2019 - 11:24 AM

    I still think it's morally wrong so in fact I'm right.

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pr154 - We at KAC don't actually feel offended, as we are primarily bot accounts. These bot accounts sometimes post on forums too - hence Ezz's remarkably high post count. But nah, we're probably not going to wall deck anyone as we'd need to be logged in to do that, and logging in is one of a KAC member's biggest hurdles.

 

The rest of my post is valid - I am especially proud of the tier 4 map domination: that will go down as a highlight of my time in the clan wars environment. 

 

Siggy's post about the A being undermined is correct. So on a serious note:

View Postpr154, on 31 July 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

I believe it's already set that you need a minimum of 10 Tier-X Capable members to join a Campaign. Increasing that to 20 shouldn't take much dev work (the usual obstruction to implementing dangerous ideas) but I'm not confident that such an increase would cause the necessary movements. Even the lowest-placing clan in Fire Trail has almost 200 Tier-X tanks, and since at 92 on the Clan Leaderboard. Availability of tanks isn't the issue, it's consolidating the players who are keen to participate but are stifled by an aloof and indifferent clan command.

 

Either way, for those clans who want to avoid a disband under this dangerous idea, is one Tier VI Skirmish every 28 days seriously going to kill anyone? I'd say it's a small inconvenience for the ability to continue to call themselves a World of Tanks Clan.

Generally an active clan will field 20+ players easily at the start of a campain. Once the first week or so has gone by, and those that are there for purely personal reasons realise it'll take considerable hard work to get the reward, you'll see numbers dwindle. It's the nature of campains - to weed out the weak and have only the strong of will continue. The issue is less that people don't have tanks and more that they don't have the constitution to see things through, or the clan lacks the leadership to coach them through.

 

I'll be honest - maybe 18 months ago I would have considered this to be relatively reasonable if not a little pushy, but currently if I were forced to play a game I am finding it hard to log in to, then I would simply just quit. I'd be surprised if there weren't a number of people in the same mindset. And to be honest, that may not be a bad thing, so there is a part of me that thinks it'd be a good way to get rid of a shit load of dead wood out of the game, but then you'd have an even shallower pool in the Aus/HK server in which to play clan wars and random games (to a point).


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Bash_sh #16 Posted 31 July 2019 - 11:49 AM

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Ezz #17 Posted 31 July 2019 - 12:07 PM

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View Postpr154, on 31 July 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

I believe it's already set that you need a minimum of 10 Tier-X Capable members to join a Campaign. Increasing that to 20 shouldn't take much dev work (the usual obstruction to implementing dangerous ideas) but I'm not confident that such an increase would cause the necessary movements. Even the lowest-placing clan in Fire Trail has almost 200 Tier-X tanks, and since at 92 on the Clan Leaderboard. Availability of tanks isn't the issue, it's consolidating the players who are keen to participate but are stifled by an aloof and indifferent clan command.

On this specifically, there are lots of ways you could ensure clans were active enough to compete. Eg a simple qualifying tournament that requires fielding 3 teams at the same time.

 

Maybe the issue isn't people locked in clans under a pretense that they are going to be competitive. Maybe the issue is clans that think they are competitive yet clearly are not.

 

New dangerous idea... lose 5 CW in a row and clan is disbanded. What could possibly be wrong with that?


Edited by Ezz, 31 July 2019 - 12:15 PM.

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jumphonner #18 Posted 31 July 2019 - 12:09 PM

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I think it is a tad harsh to disband clans for lack of Clan War action.

 

As has been said, there are a multitude of reasons to be part of a clan, Clan Wars being just one.

 

Why should my old clan of OLDr! be disbanded purely because those that are still there just like having the very occasional tank battle with their mates?

 

 



pr154 #19 Posted 31 July 2019 - 12:50 PM

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I'm probably less interested in inferring Clan Wars activity as a precondition of avoiding a disband as I am the Stronghold activity. Clan Wars is seasonal and has its own rewards, whereas rewards for Stronghold are a little less clear (unless you're involving your members in clan boosters etc). but are still highly accessible and available all year round. 

 

Either way I'm stoked you're buying into this Dangerous Ideas concept guys!

- Adjusting the Clan Wars entry requirements such that Clan Wars aspirants make the necessary mergers to have a meaningful crack at the Global Map - Interesting idea, but unfortunately I think the apathy and ego of many Clan Commanders would be such that they'd rather do nothing than lose control of their clan, regardless of what's in the best interests of their members. You would ultimately end up with less clans contesting the Global Map and more likelihood of map stagnation.

- Lose 5 CW in a Row and get disbanded - I'd rather not see clans punished for sub-par performance in Clan Wars, rather celebrated for turning up

 

View PostEzz, on 31 July 2019 - 02:07 PM, said:

Maybe the issue isn't people locked in clans under a pretense that they are going to be competitive. Maybe the issue is clans that think they are competitive yet clearly are not.

 

Quite possibly, and the proof will be in the pudding when they take to the field 
More clans doing their obligatory monthly Skirmish = More Stronghold activity => Activity breeding activity



Ezz #20 Posted 31 July 2019 - 12:56 PM

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So to step back a bit, does anyone know what percent of clans are competitive in stronks etc.? I've literally no idea but would guess maybe 10% or less. Not even sure how best to check that. And again, as an estimate should we say maybe 5% of the players in those clans may be under a false pretense over their clans competitive potential (fairly certain it would be 0% in quite a few clans). You really would be doing a bunch of damage to lots of people just on the off chance a few people would overcome their 'leave clan' apathy to find a competitive clan.

 

As to the pretense aspect, an even simpler and less broadly harmful one would be to just have a tick box for each clan signifying if that clan intends to be competitive or not. Even the SEA playerbase couldn't misread that could they?


Edited by Ezz, 31 July 2019 - 01:05 PM.

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