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[Announcement] Global Map Season 12 - things you need to know [updated Aug 14th]


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DG_ToasteD #121 Posted 18 August 2019 - 07:25 PM

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View PostGoatGuy, on 18 August 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Guys, remember these discussions are players trying to improve and keep the game alive. That includes Hopey's posts.


I support the logic that CW is for competitive play and the benefit of ‘pooling’ players into one tier (10) and one front. BUT there are game mechanics that stand in the way of lower ranked or smaller clans doing so:

  1. Our players don’t have allot of Tier10 tanks and we are prevented making up numbers with lower tiers.
  2. The few tanks we do have get locked for such a long time on 15v15
  3. The penalties for a no-show (due to lack of players) are so harsh (more so in a campaign opposed to CW season)
  4. The skill gap (between high and low ranked clans) is widened to impossible levels by the reward tank advantage. Can anyone honestly say that the following screenshot (1vs 12 reward tanks) was fair or fun competition for SABRE?

 

 

If you think the above is fine or you don't care then that is an OK opinion. But then don't also suggest that lower clans should compete more under these conditions. People play WoT for THEIR enjoyment NOT YOURS. Lower clans do not owe higher clans games.

 

I’m not saying the mechanics are easily fixed. But I feel they (and others) are reducing the player base in CW and WoT itself. There have been some arrogant comments towards  ‘lesser’ clans. But that attitude (and certain game mechanics) are leading to player voting with their feet and situations such as highlighted by some Teal players: “every time we chip 15v15 everyone removes theirs so we get the land for free and no game, not our fault no one wants to fight us”. 

 

Ayee im top for xp



IMC_Jezza #122 Posted 18 August 2019 - 07:28 PM

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View Poststewiejp, on 18 August 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Hypothetical question for the clans with lots of reward tanks up their sleeves (including my own clan) : Would a "no reward tanks on landing zones" be a reasonable compromise for those who fear the 907/Chief/279e/260 swarms. With the aim of encouraging clans to have a go at 15v15, especially clans who have not had much of a go at tier 10 or 15v15?

Sure it may not be technically possible, and of late all I play in CW is the Chief (even put some dirty equiment on it from the mission) - just thinking out loud. 

 

We just ran some Team training with -2AR- doing exactly that, for balance, and to work on some calling strats etc.  I for one have no problem with it.  We had a pretty robust discussion here in chat - and I must admit, the Chiefs and 907's are dayum stronk comparative say to a S.Conq and 140 as a direct comparison..... due to speed armour etc. 

 

But at the end of the day, If the game was that close regarding result, I highly doubt those tanks would be the real difference..... sure they can certainly help, but we've found the strats win more than the tonks.

 

All that said and done Stewie, I agree with concept for the good of tier 10 CeeDubs!  Great point, worthy of discussion!



IMC_Stewy #123 Posted 18 August 2019 - 07:38 PM

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I for one agree with the concept of having a tech-tree only global map. Advances Im unsure of, mainly because there isn't "too much" on the line and players putting great amounts of effort to get a chief/907 at least deserve the right to play it in some form of clan activity. However, I do believe a global map/campaign without reward vehicles would be beneficial for the future of clan wars.

 

The reason I think this, is because of how active these sorts of events are. Many new clans coming into the campaign scene deserve to have an even chance against the higher tier clans in terms of tank picks, and the result of the match purely comes down to player skill and calling strategies. Unfortunately, we cannot deny the fact that chieftains and 907s are better than their tech tree counter parts (Super conq and 907). 

 

 

Would love to see what other people think, especially the higher tier clans like YETI/TEAL. Personally as a caller for 1AR, we have improved greatly over the past month, and I can't deny that it has a little bit to do with the fact we now have 10+ players in the clan with chieftains, and heaps with 907s. Our results have been much better than they were beforehand, when we literally had 3 chieftain players for campaign


Edited by Stewy_, 18 August 2019 - 07:56 PM.


IMC_Jezza #124 Posted 18 August 2019 - 07:54 PM

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I think this is a great topic for discussion, as a thread separate from this one regarding the current season - Big Stewie and little Stewy, I would love to hear the thoughts on this.... 

 

I'm looking at your production company with the multitude of administration staff to kick this off StewieJP!


Edited by Jezzalenko1978, 18 August 2019 - 07:58 PM.


IMC_Jimmy #125 Posted 18 August 2019 - 09:16 PM

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i for 1 like that idea of tech tree tanks only, no reward tanks, no mission tanks just straight up tech tree tanks.. would be a great addition 
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pr154 #126 Posted 19 August 2019 - 06:01 AM

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View PostIMC_Jimmy, on 18 August 2019 - 11:16 PM, said:

i for 1 like that idea of tech tree tanks only, no reward tanks, no mission tanks just straight up tech tree tanks.. would be a great addition 

 

Suspect there would be a bit of blowback to this... I'd like to think the ELO system already provides a reasonable degree of matching of haves against the have-nots

 

Assuming for a moment that the way forward is to run a single 15v15 map at Tier X, I would agree with other posters in that the ELO system would become more justified in its application, as every clan regardless of their position would be vying for the same territory. I actually wouldn't be opposed to expanding its brief so that subsequent rounds are ELO-matched as well rather than going on the XP of the previous fight, but with the highest-ELO clans getting the bye currently I recognise that this would mean less games for them (Having that said, the higher-ELO would indicate that they have a higher prospect of overall success)

 

My main concern with a universal map is that new clans contesting this level of competition for the first time do have a hard road ahead of them. We ran an experiment in the first week, and found that with 4-5 landings per night it took a new clan about a week to drop from a default 1000ELO to 850ELO. We kept at it because we had ulterior motives, but I'm not sure that an emerging clan with limited competitive experience will have 15 members with the tenacity to fight 4-5 games a night for 3-4 weeks to get to where they need to be. Perhaps a more aggressive modifier to ELO is required for a clan with <10 fights at a given Global Map Tier?



Ezz #127 Posted 19 August 2019 - 06:40 AM

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Or they could, you know, balance the tanks.........

Edited by Ezz, 19 August 2019 - 06:40 AM.

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MagicalFlyingFox #128 Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:03 AM

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View PostEzz, on 19 August 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

Or they could, you know, balance the tanks.........

lol


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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


IMC_Stewy #129 Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:55 AM

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View Postpr154, on 19 August 2019 - 06:01 AM, said:

 

Suspect there would be a bit of blowback to this... I'd like to think the ELO system already provides a reasonable degree of matching of haves against the have-nots

 

Assuming for a moment that the way forward is to run a single 15v15 map at Tier X, I would agree with other posters in that the ELO system would become more justified in its application, as every clan regardless of their position would be vying for the same territory. I actually wouldn't be opposed to expanding its brief so that subsequent rounds are ELO-matched as well rather than going on the XP of the previous fight, but with the highest-ELO clans getting the bye currently I recognise that this would mean less games for them (Having that said, the higher-ELO would indicate that they have a higher prospect of overall success)

 

My main concern with a universal map is that new clans contesting this level of competition for the first time do have a hard road ahead of them. We ran an experiment in the first week, and found that with 4-5 landings per night it took a new clan about a week to drop from a default 1000ELO to 850ELO. We kept at it because we had ulterior motives, but I'm not sure that an emerging clan with limited competitive experience will have 15 members with the tenacity to fight 4-5 games a night for 3-4 weeks to get to where they need to be. Perhaps a more aggressive modifier to ELO is required for a clan with <10 fights at a given Global Map Tier?

Since starting to play World of tanks I have been the commander of 2 small clans. My first clan (SBN-A) was formed and we attempted for tier 6 clan wars. Unfortunately, we never really had sufficient numbers for it and I ended up abandoning the clan due to other issues. 

 

The 2nd clan I attempted to form was -NFG-. Unfortunately for us, we formed after the end of tier 6 clan wars so we were unable to compete on the level of clan wars. The point is, I know how it feels to be a smaller clan, but I also agree that the only way forward for clan wars is for a single 15 v 15 front.

 

The reasons why have already been talked about, but in summary there is so many clans that can do 15 v 15 that are hiding down in 10 v 10 because of reasons I really have no idea of. I believe the other night for 10 v 10 there was over 20 applicants for a province, meanwhile on 15 v 15 in the SAME timezone, many of the provinces were empty. 

 

If there was no choice as to what you had to play, then clans would try harder to actively recruit players and try to form 15 v 15 teams. Hats off for -2AR-, they were formed as a way for players to join the AR community if they didn't have enough tier 10 tanks. 2AR was meant to be simply a tier 8 clan rather than tier 10 (1AR), but because of the changes they have been forced to make a massive step up to tier 10.

 

Over the past week they have made another HUGE step up to 15 v 15 clan wars, a big challenge not just for 2AR, but other clans similar to them in terms of member count. I'm mentioning 2AR because they're the clan that I know the most of, but hats off to any clans that are trying their best to form 15 v 15 teams in the current state of clan wars.

 

What is disappointing however is the fact that as it stands the majority of clans doing 15 v 15 (Especially during the ANZ timezones) are the more experienced top end clans. And from what I can see, it appears that this "Intimidation factor" is scaring off the clans who are more than capable of filling 15 v 15, but are choosing to do 10 v 10 because thats where the easier games are

 

What I would like to see is a season where there is 1 15 v 15 front, just to see how it goes. With this, all clans would be fighting on the same level and this means that landing provinces would be a much more even fight as it matches people by ELO in the first round. This to me is a-lot more appealing then 800 ELO clans fighting 1000 ELO clans in the first round

 

Sorry for the essay but this has turned into a good discussion and Id like to get my POV across. 


Edited by Stewy_, 19 August 2019 - 11:59 AM.


MagicalFlyingFox #130 Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:59 AM

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People will always drop down till they can 'dominate'.

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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Puggsley #131 Posted 19 August 2019 - 12:04 PM

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I liked the approach WoWS took in giving 3 "rental" TX ships to players prior to a CW session. You were not able to put camo on the rental ship so you were at a slight disadvantage to someone who had ground out the ship. You could still pay credits to mount equipment. It was like a premium that you could put your best regular captain into with no penalty. It was non-locking (i think) so losing it was not an issue in terms of being able to keep playing.

 

Took away the barrier to CW of not having a ship to play with.

 

Would be easy to do in WoT and remove the issue of people running out of tanks to use. Picking pretty generic type tanks (IS7, Object 140 etc) which are reasonable meta tanks would help, with the inbuilt slight reduction in competitiveness for camo.  



MagicalFlyingFox #132 Posted 19 August 2019 - 12:08 PM

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View PostPuggsley, on 19 August 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

I liked the approach WoWS took in giving 3 "rental" TX ships to players prior to a CW session. You were not able to put camo on the rental ship so you were at a slight disadvantage to someone who had ground out the ship. You could still pay credits to mount equipment. It was like a premium that you could put your best regular captain into with no penalty. It was non-locking (i think) so losing it was not an issue in terms of being able to keep playing.

 

Took away the barrier to CW of not having a ship to play with.

 

Would be easy to do in WoT and remove the issue of people running out of tanks to use. Picking pretty generic type tanks (IS7, Object 140 etc) which are reasonable meta tanks would help, with the inbuilt slight reduction in competitiveness for camo.  

We literally discussed this exact thing before funnily enough.

 

 

WoWS devs listening to WoT forums more than WoT devs...


Edited by MagicalFlyingFox, 19 August 2019 - 12:08 PM.

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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Ezz #133 Posted 19 August 2019 - 12:18 PM

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You suspect the issues of intra tier balance would persist however.

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pr154 #134 Posted 19 August 2019 - 02:56 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 19 August 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

We literally discussed this exact thing before funnily enough.

 

WoWS devs listening to WoT forums more than WoT devs...

 

That's a great solution if being Tier-capable is the problem, but I don't believe it is. Remember WoT has been around 5 years longer than WoWS, so more accounts have had more time and opportunity to grind their way to top tier.

I believe it's more a challenge of getting 15 Tier-capable clan members into tanks at a prescribed time, while competing with the plethora of other shiny content WG insists on running in the middle of CW Seasons

 

Once the competition platform evolves and the ability of a clan to field in its own right starts to run away, you'd like to think that a conscious effort would be made to either to recruit or merge. This is driven PURELY by the clan command. More often than not, the sick combination of a lack of aspiration on the part of clan command, blind loyalty to dead clan (at least competitively) and ignorance from clan member rank-and-file of the competitive space prevails over pragmatism. I can see the benefits of a single map for those clans that still have a toe in the water, but this is not without risk that some clans will leave the pool entirely.


Edited by pr154, 19 August 2019 - 06:56 PM.


GoatGuy #135 Posted 19 August 2019 - 08:29 PM

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It seems top/large clans want a single 15v15 Tier 10 CW front. And the reasons new/small clans oppose this is due barriers created by CW mechanics rather than not wanting to play 15v15. So if we are serious lets remove the barriers for newer/smaller clans:

 

  1. Allow some lower tier tanks in the platoon. Especially Tier 8 since allot easier to grind (or buy). Put a cap on it since the idea is to fill the last few spots in the platoon when low on tanks/players opposed to run platoons of all tier 8. Maybe use a total tier threshold as currently used in Skims (eg. the platoon must be between 130-150 tiers). That would also spice up the tank mix rather than always see 13 chiefs and two EBRs in every battle *slight exaggeration*
  2. Make tank locking less harsh. If you want newer/small clans on the same front don’t lock their only tank for such long periods!
  3. Change the match scheduling system!!! At present clans have to throw matches to avoid a double up, and/or receive massive no-show penalties for battles they did not schedule. Match scheduling (ie. the next match after a win doubling up with another scheduled game) is confusing, frustrating, and impacts new/small clans much more harshly since they don’t have the players on stand-by.
  4. Change the no-show penalty for newer/small clans. Maybe factor in how many clan members are online. I know the penalty prevents phantom chipping, but it also stops new/small clans chipping when they’re not sure they’ll have the players online.
  5. Make CW rules and interface more transparent and easy. It’s brain damage. There seem to be only a handful of people in any clan I’ve been in that understand what’s going on between battles. Not easy to get new clans in.
  6. Make new clan the starting ELO lower (eg. 900) so to not scare off new clans.
  7. Remove major in-game events during CW. Like Frontlines. That pull the player base off CW.
  8. Apply ELO match making to landing provinces first round battles.
  9. Introduce rental tanks for CW
  10. Somehow remove the reward tank advantage (as covered before). Maybe block them from landing battles.

 

Credit to other posters for some of the above points.

 


Edited by GoatGuy, 19 August 2019 - 08:36 PM.


MagicalFlyingFox #136 Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:18 PM

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View PostGoatGuy, on 19 August 2019 - 11:29 PM, said:

It seems top/large clans want a single 15v15 Tier 10 CW front. And the reasons new/small clans oppose this is due barriers created by CW mechanics rather than not wanting to play 15v15. So if we are serious lets remove the barriers for newer/smaller clans:

 

  1. Allow some lower tier tanks in the platoon. Especially Tier 8 since allot easier to grind (or buy). Put a cap on it since the idea is to fill the last few spots in the platoon when low on tanks/players opposed to run platoons of all tier 8. Maybe use a total tier threshold as currently used in Skims (eg. the platoon must be between 130-150 tiers). That would also spice up the tank mix rather than always see 13 chiefs and two EBRs in every battle *slight exaggeration*
    This is fine, in moderation. Its just that lowering the tiers means that you are basically accepting that you are going to lose if you bring in tier 8s. They are just woefully outmatched in every way shape and form. Tier 9 is also not even close to ideal, I'd rather bring a T-62A or E5 rather than bring a tier 9. 
  2. Make tank locking less harsh. If you want newer/small clans on the same front don’t lock their only tank for such long 
    It has been made less harsh. It used to be a whole week, I think 36 hours (One day of battles essentially) is around the sweet-spot since we aren't really going to have any wars of attrition like we used to.
  3. Change the match scheduling system!!! At present clans have to throw matches to avoid a double up, and/or receive massive no-show penalties for battles they did not schedule. Match scheduling (ie. the next match after a win doubling up with another scheduled game) is confusing, frustrating, and impacts new/small clans much more harshly since they don’t have the players on stand-by.
    Not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind this. It is a problem that the chipper needs to solve and the clan to heavy-handedly state that ____ amount of players need to be on. 
  4. Change the no-show penalty for newer/small clans. Maybe factor in how many clan members are online. I know the penalty prevents phantom chipping, but it also stops new/small clans chipping when they’re not sure they’ll have the players online.
    Isn't that the point? If they dont think they have enough, they wont chip and the enemy wont have their time wasted. 
  5. Make CW rules and interface more transparent and easy. It’s brain damage. There seem to be only a handful of people in any clan I’ve been in that understand what’s going on between battles. Not easy to get new clans in.
    Campaign rules are a mess and extremely difficult to understand but that's to be expected given what is at stake. In-season rules are very straight forward. 
  6. Make new clan the starting ELO lower (eg. 900) so to not scare off new clans.
    It only takes about a day or two to go up or down closer to your level. 
  7. Remove major in-game events during CW. Like Frontlines. That pull the player base off CW.
  8. Apply ELO match making to landing provinces first round battles.
    There already is
  9. Introduce rental tanks for CW
  10. Somehow remove the reward tank advantage (as covered before). Maybe block them from landing battles.
    I support this idea, WG deciding to make some reward tanks so powerful just baffles me. It creates a huge divide between the haves and have nots that is extremely detrimental to the game as a whole. 

 

Credit to other posters for some of the above points.

 

 


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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


HoPeY_ #137 Posted 20 August 2019 - 12:27 AM

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I suspect the solution is let those who want 15 vs 15 tier 10 go for it. Smaller clans and those not interested in that format, lets organise tier 8 scrims and advances or something similar and forget about CW. It's not like we get anything from doing tier 10 anyway except high costs and the frustration of meeting clans we are not equal to.

 

Probably more reward and equal teams doing this and it will help build up and coming clans.



Twit_ #138 Posted 20 August 2019 - 12:49 AM

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I for one would love to see tier VIII SH brought back :) Just need more clans playing the mode.

SLAV_ROBIN #139 Posted 20 August 2019 - 07:03 AM

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View PostTwit_, on 20 August 2019 - 04:49 AM, said:

I for one would love to see tier VIII SH brought back :) Just need more clans playing the mode.

*just need non botfarm clans ex teambattle acocunts* playing the mode


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stewiejp #140 Posted 20 August 2019 - 07:21 AM

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Some good ideas Goat Guy. yeah some ideas may not be workable but it's good to have these discussions.

Some thoughts...

Tank Locking - how about this (and yes it's early but bear with me)... Make it so the more often a tank is played in CW (not just by that particular player or clan but by the whole server) - the longer it locks for? Lose a Chieftain/907/EBR and it's locked for a week. Lose a Leopard or AMX 30 and you get it back in a matter of hours. We will see some different line ups should that happen for sure!

Tier 8's and 9's (9's can already join). As mentioned 8's are a lot weaker but better than not playing I guess. Years ago it was pulled as clans turned up in all Tier 1's to deny points/fame/whatever but if it gets clans playing then I don't see an issue - especially if it is 2 clans who may likely be in the same boat battling. 

Events clashing on our server is certainly going to affect both the event and CWs - tonight having Frontlines AND CWs could be interesting.

 


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