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Why WTR is a terrible metric


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Vindictus_Maximus #21 Posted 02 December 2019 - 11:29 AM

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I have been testing this, a (3) mastery badge in a tier9 tank earns considerably higher WTR that a (M) ace tanker badge in a tier5 tank. And this is the point I made in the other thread, you cannot effectively statpad in low tiers, and unless you get Ace Tanker or (1) mastery badge, it will wreck your stats and it is the tier multiplier mechanic that does that.

 

And remember that it also compares against the server average of that particular tank, so 1200 damage in a Pz V/IV will earn you less WTR that doing 800 damage in a T-34. So you cannot stat pad using 'OP' tanks anymore. A decent game in a TVP VTU will give you as good a stats as a decent game in a Defender or SkorpG.

 

Last night I took my StandardB out for a dozen games doing about 2100 average damage, which is decent performance and earned me a decent 8600 WTR. But I got 43% winrate, under the current system I would have actually gone backwards in my stats because it all about winrate.  (you do earn more points surviving the battle though. Losses you are more likely to die so still can hurt slightly)

 

WTR is far superior to the current system and to WN8. No more low tier stat padding, no more being punished because of bad teams, rewards the higher tier tank that is played

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Vindictus_Maximus, 02 December 2019 - 11:33 AM.


_stevethegecko_ #22 Posted 02 December 2019 - 11:34 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 02 December 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

I have been testing this, a (3) mastery badge in a tier9 tank earns considerably higher WTR that a (M) ace tanker badge in a tier5 tank. And this is the point I made in the other thread, you cannot effectively statpad in low tiers, and unless you get Ace Tanker or (1) mastery badge, it will wreck your stats and it is the tier multiplier mechanic that does that.

 

And remember that it also compares against the server average of that particular tank, so 1200 damage in a Pz V/IV will earn you less WTR that doing 800 damage in a T-34. So you cannot stat pad using 'OP' tanks anymore. A decent game in a TVP VTU will give you as good a stats as a decent game in a Defender or SkorpG.

 

Last night I took my StandardB out for a dozen games doing about 2100 average damage, which is decent performance and earned me a decent 8600 WTR. But I got 43% winrate, under the current system I would have actually gone backwards in my stats because it all about winrate. 

 

WTR is far superior to the current system and to WN8. No more low tier stat padding, no more being punished because of bad teams, rewards the higher tier tank that is played

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact that I have a slightly lower WTR than the guy who is now in 3rd is bullshit, especially when my win% is 12% higher and I did better in everything except assistance damage. 
 

Your reasons for liking WTR are the reasons that it is a shit metric. WN8 goes by expected values on a per tank basis too. 
 

Win rate is the best metric and anything else is a supplement. 
 

As for your comment about not being able to stat pad in OP tanks, you’re the only person I’ve come across who thinks WTR is a good rating. If the expected value for the T-34 is so low, anyone who wants to inflate their WTR will play it with the 57mm and premium ammo and go to town. Off the top off my head the 57 does 75-80 damage per shot, so in less than a minute of continuous firing you can easily hit that expected damage.  10-11 penetrating hits and you’re there. 
 

I witnessed the guy above me in game in his 3/4. His style of playing is why his win% is significantly lower than mine. Going by WTR, he is slightly better. Going by every thing else, especially his win% for November, I’m significantly better. 


Edited by FeeTFooD, 02 December 2019 - 11:47 AM.

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Vindictus_Maximus #23 Posted 02 December 2019 - 11:57 AM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 02 December 2019 - 11:34 AM, said:

 Your reasons for liking WTR are the reasons that it is a shit metric. WN8 goes by expected values on a per tank basis too. 
 

 

That screenshot where you did top XP doing only 19 damage proved how useless WN8 is . Your WTR would have improved nicely though, sometimes you need to just sit in a bush a resist the urge to blow your camo firing shots for damage right? In that battle , how much damage did you forgo for the sake of spotting? You should be rewarded.

 

It is not just damage and assist, it is also early spots, spotting your own damage, just like the ranked battles system, and rewards for playing your tank the correct way.



_stevethegecko_ #24 Posted 02 December 2019 - 12:02 PM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 02 December 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

 

That screenshot where you did top XP doing only 19 damage proved how useless WN8 is . Your WTR would have improved nicely though, sometimes you need to just sit in a bush a resist the urge to blow your camo firing shots for damage right? In that battle , how much damage did you forgo for the sake of spotting? You should be rewarded.

 

It is not just damage and assist, it is also early spots, spotting your own damage, just like the ranked battles system, and rewards for playing your tank the correct way.

I’m not praising WN8. I hate it. It’s only a supplement to win%. 
 

Light tanks are the best class to pad WN8 and WTR because the expected values for damage are so low. Simply doing your own HP in the 59-16 is enough to earn purple points but if you’re not playing to win, you’re an idiot. 


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CardinalMite #25 Posted 02 December 2019 - 03:54 PM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 02 December 2019 - 03:57 AM, said:

 

That screenshot where you did top XP doing only 19 damage proved how useless WN8 is . Your WTR would have improved nicely though, sometimes you need to just sit in a bush a resist the urge to blow your camo firing shots for damage right? In that battle , how much damage did you forgo for the sake of spotting? You should be rewarded.

 

It is not just damage and assist, it is also early spots, spotting your own damage, just like the ranked battles system, and rewards for playing your tank the correct way.

Being better than WN8 does not make it a good metric. 


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NameWasStolenStresslevel #26 Posted 02 December 2019 - 05:01 PM

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win rate might be the "best" metric, but its not accurate either. Can be padded by platooning, can be skewed by low battle count (ie 100 battles played on E25 i had 85% WR...)... I think WR works well and its accurate when being analyzed with other stats. Other stats cannot be analyzed without WR, same for WR, being analyzed alone will not be accurate...

 

WTR takes in account:

 

-Wins, battle count, survival rate, kills, assist dmg, DamagePerGame, hit rate, dmg blocked, exp per battle; 

-HTs get more WTR for dmg blocked;

-LTs gets more WTR for spotting, MTs get bonus WTR for assist and kills;

-TDs needs tons of dmg to farm WTR

 

The most useless stats among these above is the survital rate (imo, but i might be wrong, this game is all about dying quick to me). The other stats are all good when analyzed WITH Win rate.


Edited by NameWasStolenStresslevel, 02 December 2019 - 05:13 PM.

Having META problems?

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_stevethegecko_ #27 Posted 02 December 2019 - 05:33 PM

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View PostNameWasStolenStresslevel, on 02 December 2019 - 08:01 PM, said:

win rate might be the "best" metric, but its not accurate either. Can be padded by platooning, can be skewed by low battle count (ie 100 battles played on E25 i had 85% WR...)... I think WR works well and its accurate when being analyzed with other stats. Other stats cannot be analyzed without WR, same for WR, being analyzed alone will not be accurate...

 

WTR takes in account:

 

-Wins, battle count, survival rate, kills, assist dmg, DamagePerGame, hit rate, dmg blocked, exp per battle; 

-HTs get more WTR for dmg blocked;

-LTs gets more WTR for spotting, MTs get bonus WTR for assist and kills;

-TDs needs tons of dmg to farm WTR

 

The most useless stats among these above is the survital rate (imo, but i might be wrong, this game is all about dying quick to me). The other stats are all good when analyzed WITH Win rate.

All good points. Your last sentence exactly. I’ve been saying that everything is supplemental to winning. Farming is all good and well but if you’re not winning then what’s the point?


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Splattimus #28 Posted 02 December 2019 - 05:44 PM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 02 December 2019 - 07:33 PM, said:

All good points. Your last sentence exactly. I’ve been saying that everything is supplemental to winning. Farming is all good and well but if you’re not winning then what’s the point?

 

The other thing is, most, if not all stats, in the RIGHT situation, can win a game. But in the WRONG situation, it can be detrimental. Win Rate is the ONLY stat which can comment on if what you do is right or wrong for the team.

 

BUT... There are ways to pad even Win Rate, but it could be said even doing that is still a step in the right direction, or you at least are hanging out with people who know the right things to do...


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Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #29 Posted 02 December 2019 - 05:45 PM

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Chevrons rate better than winrate

 

Off by 1 XPG...


_stevethegecko_ #30 Posted 02 December 2019 - 06:31 PM

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View PostAoyama_Blue_Mountain, on 02 December 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

Chevrons rate better than winrate

Chevrons in the manicure at that!


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Ezz #31 Posted 02 December 2019 - 06:44 PM

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View PostAoyama_Blue_Mountain, on 02 December 2019 - 07:45 PM, said:

Chevrons rate better than winrate

Not that far off. Tho at times i felt like a 3rd place loser was more valuable than a 8-10th place winner. But i guess that's how important winning should be.


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TotallyNotAReroll #32 Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:36 AM

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Winning is all luck. You’re put in a team with 14 random people against 15 random people. Your contribution means nothing because there are 14 other people on your team playing for themselves.

Ezz #33 Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:54 AM

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Not sure if naive new player or just another vindi clone.

Edited by Ezz, 03 December 2019 - 06:54 AM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

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_stevethegecko_ #34 Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:59 AM

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View PostEzz, on 03 December 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:

Not sure if naive new player or just another vindi clone.

Whoever it is they’re totally not a reroll. 


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Puggsley #35 Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:19 AM

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View PostTotallyNotAReroll, on 03 December 2019 - 08:36 AM, said:

Winning is all luck. You’re put in a team with 14 random people against 15 random people. Your contribution means nothing because there are 14 other people on your team playing for themselves.

 

Play 100 battles as you normally would. Record Win rate. 

 

Play 100 battles where you do nothing, sit at the back with arty. Record win rate.

 

The difference between the win rates should disabuse you of the idiotic notion that winning is all luck. 



Vindictus_Maximus #36 Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:38 AM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 02 December 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

 Light tanks are the best class to pad WN8 and WTR because the expected values for damage are so low. 

 

No, not with WTR. You are compared against the server average of the tank you are playing   If you are playing the EVEN90, you are compared against other EVEN90 players. 

 

View PostCardinalMite, on 02 December 2019 - 03:54 PM, said:

Being better than WN8 does not make it a good metric. 

 

It is an excellent metric, especially compared to WN8 the current one being used.  

 

View PostPuggsley, on 03 December 2019 - 07:19 AM, said:

 The difference between the win rates should disabuse you of the idiotic notion that winning is all luck. 

 

Even the very best players only win 60/100 games, they dont even have control over winrates. They do have total control over their personal gameplay however.

 

The really good players are going to love the WTR when it comes online, trust me.



_stevethegecko_ #37 Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:40 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 03 December 2019 - 11:38 AM, said:

 

No, not with WTR. You are compared against the server average of the tank you are playing   If you are playing the EVEN90, you are compared against other EVEN90 players. 

 

 

It is an excellent metric, especially compared to WN8 the current one being used.  

 

 

Even the very best players only win 60/100 games, they dont even have control over winrates. They do have total control over their personal gameplay however.

 

The really good players are going to love the WTR when it comes online, trust me.

Which good players? Everyone worth their salt will still use win%. 


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TotallyNotAReroll #38 Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:50 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 03 December 2019 - 12:38 AM, said:

 

No, not with WTR. You are compared against the server average of the tank you are playing   If you are playing the EVEN90, you are compared against other EVEN90 players. 

 

 

It is an excellent metric, especially compared to WN8 the current one being used.  

 

 

Even the very best players only win 60/100 games, they dont even have control over winrates. They do have total control over their personal gameplay however.

 

The really good players are going to love the WTR when it comes online, trust me.

Winning is 100% luck based. What the hell is WN8 and WTR sounds really interesting. 
 

If a coin is flipped once, it could be head or tails. I’d flipped twice, the odds of it landing on the same face are 2:1. Three times, 4:1. Unless there is an outside influence the coin should land on equal faces roughly the same number of times. These players who think they’re really good are just really lucky and going on odds that are literally millions to one in order to win 60% of their battles. 



_stevethegecko_ #39 Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:51 AM

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View PostTotallyNotAReroll, on 03 December 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

Winning is 100% luck based. What the hell is WN8 and WTR sounds really interesting. 
 

If a coin is flipped once, it could be head or tails. I’d flipped twice, the odds of it landing on the same face are 2:1. Three times, 4:1. Unless there is an outside influence the coin should land on equal faces roughly the same number of times. These players who think they’re really good are just really lucky and going on odds that are literally millions to one in order to win 60% of their battles. 

What is this? I can’t even… were you dropped on your head?


Edited by FeeTFooD, 03 December 2019 - 08:51 AM.

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Puggsley #40 Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:52 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 03 December 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

 

No, not with WTR. You are compared against the server average of the tank you are playing   If you are playing the EVEN90, you are compared against other EVEN90 players. 

 

Yes, read what he said. He was not talking about WTR at all.

 

It is an excellent metric, especially compared to WN8 the current one being used.  

 

 

Even the very best players only win 60/100 games, they dont even have control over winrates. They do have total control over their personal gameplay however.

 

The really good players are going to love the WTR when it comes online, trust me.

 

The very best players do control win rates, by playing well. 

 

I don't trust you at all, you are infatuated with padding stats as evidenced by your huge number of stat padder tanks. And because you have achieved success against noobs you are looking for something which doesn't involve winning.

 

The very best players are all about winning, they won't give two hoots about WTR, because it measures only a small portion of what good players do. WR on the other hand measures overall performance, when combined with context insights from things like tanks played and base metrics.

 

For example your overall WR of 55% is driven to a large extent by your huge number of Luchs seal clubbing games. Then by your large number of low tier games. You are competent at low tiers against new players. 

 

But when you play higher tiers (6+) against players who generally understand mechanics, your performance plummets.  

 

 

 






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