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Why WTR is a terrible metric


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Vindictus_Maximus #61 Posted 05 December 2019 - 10:16 AM

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View PostPuggsley, on 04 December 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

 You are a reroll, and with pretty terrible stats for one. I think that you see ignoring WR as a way to tell yourself you are a better player. After all that is what drives people to reroll in the first place.

 

 

6hNEzVC.jpg

I am in the 7000s in PR and WTR, 2000 WN8, trending upwards, slowly getting better crews and tanks, I am satisfied :) Anyway maybe you should start a 'failed reroll' thread so you can stay on topic?

 

View PostAoyama_Blue_Mountain, on 04 December 2019 - 05:33 PM, said:

We need a new winrate is luck thread. 2019 has passed without a proper one..

 

an35Qmw.jpg

 

Trying to grind the EBR90, but unfortunately for the poor teams that have been stuck with me, I have managed to highhandedly lose 71% of the games they played. I was literally the nexus of the universe, even being bottom tier on Himmelsdorf, I was all up to me - the other 14 players were irrelevant to the win or loss.

 

The good news is that my combined damage/spots have kept me in the top 20% compared to the server average,  boosting me WTR performance nicely. I like the WTR stats, you can grief teams to losses yet improve your personal stats


Edited by Vindictus_Maximus, 05 December 2019 - 10:18 AM.


_stevethegecko_ #62 Posted 05 December 2019 - 10:26 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 05 December 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

 

6hNEzVC.jpg

I am in the 7000s in PR and WTR, 2000 WN8, trending upwards, slowly getting better crews and tanks, I am satisfied :) Anyway maybe you should start a 'failed reroll' thread so you can stay on topic?

 

 

an35Qmw.jpg

 

Trying to grind the EBR90, but unfortunately for the poor teams that have been stuck with me, I have managed to highhandedly lose 71% of the games they played. I was literally the nexus of the universe, even being bottom tier on Himmelsdorf, I was all up to me - the other 14 players were irrelevant to the win or loss.

 

The good news is that my combined damage/spots have kept me in the top 20% compared to the server average,  boosting me WTR performance nicely. I like the WTR stats, you can grief teams to losses yet improve your personal stats

And here is the epeen stroking. No one cares vindi. You’ve seal clubbed in OP tanks and your upper tier gameplay is dead average. Your Lorraine and Senlac performance is downright embarrassing. Is that why you’re worshipping WTR? 
There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat. I have given up on several tanks and lines because I just don’t do well in them. I have three accounts, one which I got support to reset because I felt like a fresh start and the other was a pure re-roll which ended up with stats similar to my recent (last 1000 games played) so I just stayed content with my main (which if anyone cares puts me in the top 10% of all players - and I’m content with that). 
 

The reason you rub people the wrong way is that you come across as an arrogant jerk. People are always going to have differing opinions you can always agree to disagree. Most of the forum users will use a combination of stats to judge skill, but win% will always be a factor because in a competitive game, if you’re not winning then what’s the point. 
 

 


Edited by FeeTFooD, 05 December 2019 - 11:17 AM.

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Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #63 Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:16 AM

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Finally VM posts evidence supporting the thread title

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CardinalMite #64 Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:24 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 05 December 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

 

6hNEzVC.jpg

I am in the 7000s in PR and WTR, 2000 WN8, trending upwards, slowly getting better crews and tanks, I am satisfied :) Anyway maybe you should start a 'failed reroll' thread so you can stay on topic?

 

 

an35Qmw.jpg

 

Trying to grind the EBR90, but unfortunately for the poor teams that have been stuck with me, I have managed to highhandedly lose 71% of the games they played. I was literally the nexus of the universe, even being bottom tier on Himmelsdorf, I was all up to me - the other 14 players were irrelevant to the win or loss.

 

The good news is that my combined damage/spots have kept me in the top 20% compared to the server average,  boosting me WTR performance nicely. I like the WTR stats, you can grief teams to losses yet improve your personal stats

So this proves you are good in an ebr 90? How exactly? Number of trees knocked over?

 

Fact is that is a small sample that may or may not be representative of how you play overall in that tank. No metric is accurate over small sample, if you think otherwise then you are deluding yourself.


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_stevethegecko_ #65 Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:25 AM

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Holy shit I didn’t even notice the low win%. V_M mate; you just kicked an own goal.

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Ezz #66 Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:47 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 05 December 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

Trying to grind the EBR90

Good on you for having a crack at something above tier 5. And don't get too disheartened if you're struggling with the upper tier meta. It's a far more difficult place to be learning the game.

 

As to your ebr, it's clearly a small sample, but straight away it seems clear you aren't really using it to its potential. Your spotted and assistance are considerably down on where they should be for that line. I'd be looking at how you can be more helpful to your teams, then you should start seeing that win rate move out of griefer territory so you won't be such a detriment to your team.


Edited by Ezz, 05 December 2019 - 11:50 AM.

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_stevethegecko_ #67 Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:50 AM

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View PostEzz, on 05 December 2019 - 02:47 PM, said:

Good on you for having a crack at something above tier 5. And don't get too disheartened if you're struggling with the upper tier meta. It's a far more difficult place to be learning the game.

 

As to your ebr, it's clearly a small sample, but straight away it seems clear you aren't really using it to its potential. Your spotted and assistance are considerably down on where they should be for that line. I'd be looking at how you can be more helpful to your teams, then you should start seeing that win rate move out of griefer territory so you won't be such a detriment to your team.

The amount of subtle here stings me. 


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Ezz #68 Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:59 AM

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It's not meant to be subtle. The dude is having a crack at the upper tiers and is clearly out of his depth. Sure we could pile shit on him for that, but realistically i'd rather someone who has bothered to learn the bot tier meta having a crack at the upper tiers as opposed to the unending bunch of bot like players appearing up there. And it's not like the upper tiers are easy to learn. They play different. The meta is far more structured. The players you face are considerably more capable. Mistakes are punished to a far greater degree. And stuff like vision which you can abuse easily in the mid tiers due to a combination of lower view ranges and lesser crews just don't provide as many opportunities to those still learning. Apart from his D-K related rhetoric, i'm sure he wants to improve. It's the least we can do.


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Vindictus_Maximus #69 Posted 06 December 2019 - 06:40 AM

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View PostEzz, on 05 December 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

It's not meant to be subtle. The dude is having a crack at the upper tiers and is clearly out of his depth. .

 

The good thing is about the WTR is that it ignores winrate and rated performance, The EBR90 is just fine, and unlike your EBR105, at least cracking above the 1000 average damage despite the teams and lack of late game damage and assist because of the losses.

 

Early days, though I doubt I will ever manage 70k games like you  :P

 

Currently, the Personal Rating calculates the total progress of an account rather than evaluating player performance, which makes for rigid stats that say little of your opponents or personal efficiency. The more battles you’ve been through, the higher your rating.

 

 oof

 

 



Ezz #70 Posted 06 December 2019 - 07:01 AM

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Yeah PR for people under about 10k battles is slightly impacted but that impact is non linear. By 15k it's negligible. It's only really re rolls who would care to be honest. For those still learning the game it provides a nice way to gauge their improvement, even with that slightly artificial inflation from battle count. But give it time and i'm sure you'll see yours start to come up with any improvement you make.

Edited by Ezz, 06 December 2019 - 07:03 AM.

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Vindictus_Maximus #71 Posted 06 December 2019 - 07:11 AM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 05 December 2019 - 10:26 AM, said:

And here is the epeen stroking. No one cares vindi. You’ve seal clubbed in OP tanks and your upper tier gameplay is dead average. Your Lorraine and Senlac performance is downright embarrassing 
 

The reason you rub people the wrong way is that you come across as an arrogant jerk. 

 

 

Actually, I come here and present reasonable arguments, avoid personal attacks, and attempt to stick to the subject. What happens however is that when I start winning the debates, you guys get all frustrated and start with the personal attacks.  Ad hominems - the last resort for those that fail to win the debate.

 

Most of you guys here are actually bullies. You all gong up on anyone new here that has a reasonable complaint, you mock them, and they leave and never come back. And you are left with this deadzone forum that no-one wants to visit, its like the Goblin kingdom from the Hobbit - Ezz beaing the Goblin king. Everyone I have known hates this place, and it is you bullies that make it that way

 

The fact that I force you into personal attacks, because you cant successfully debate amuses me.



_stevethegecko_ #72 Posted 06 December 2019 - 07:28 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 06 December 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

 

Actually, I come here and present reasonable arguments, avoid personal attacks, and attempt to stick to the subject. What happens however is that when I start winning the debates, you guys get all frustrated and start with the personal attacks.  Ad hominems - the last resort for those that fail to win the debate.

 

Most of you guys here are actually bullies. You all gong up on anyone new here that has a reasonable complaint, you mock them, and they leave and never come back. And you are left with this deadzone forum that no-one wants to visit, its like the Goblin kingdom from the Hobbit - Ezz beaing the Goblin king. Everyone I have known hates this place, and it is you bullies that make it that way

 

The fact that I force you into personal attacks, because you cant successfully debate amuses me.

There’s no debating you because you fail to recognise that no one agrees with you. No one is getting frustrated with you, you just perceive our mocking as ad hominem because of your hyper inflated sense of ego and skill. I’ve explained many times why WTR is a good metric, explaining that it can be farmed and you kicked an own goal with the screenshot you posted yesterday. You proved my point - albeit with a small sample size - that unless you’re winning, derived stats such as WTR, WN8 etc are pointless. 

 

You argue that WTR is a good metric because it is independent of winning. We looked at your per vehicle stats and found that there is a sharp drop off in skill and win% as you went up the tiers. We also noticed a large amount of battles played in very powerful low tier vehicles. Your whole argument is trying to convince people that disagree with you that win% is irrelevant of player skill, our argument is the inverse. 
 

You even tried to use Ezz’s EBR stats against your 90s to try and make a point. I haven’t checked his win% but I’m sure it’s significantly higher than yours, and that is what matters more. 
 

Going by your standards, the guy who knocked me off 3rd in the Panzer 3/4 is a better player than me in it even though he is a red line sniper and doesn’t contribute much to wins, just farms damage. That’s why WTR alone is bullshit, it doesn’t show team play. 
 

Oh and you’re not forcing personal attacks, we just think you’re an idiot and are expressing our feelings. You complain about ad hominem and then go do the same. 
 


Edited by FeeTFooD, 06 December 2019 - 07:29 AM.

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Ezz #73 Posted 06 December 2019 - 08:00 AM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 06 December 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

There’s no debating you because you fail to recognise that no one agrees with you.

I suspect he uses a version of wtr to track his debating performance - where making salient points doesn't enter into the calculation. There are similarities after all. Eg in battles there is meaningless damage that doesn't contribute to a win but boosts your wtr. Just as on the forums there are all sorts of meaningless words that do nothing to help ones case - such as my ebr stats. Honestly vindi, do you even think they're relevant? They simply show that in a small sample it's possible to win battles with a scout by focusing on things other than damage output. Those stats highlight how important map awareness and taking opportunities are to winning. Moreover they underscore how inadequate wtr is as a metric. For a 56% win rate you'd expect a decent wtr, yet the wtr is low. But mostly they show that a small sample is near meaningless in terms of generating valid data.

 

Tho this comes from someone who proclaimed his small sample size 28% WR is 'fine'. If he thinks that is 'fine' then it's no wonder he seeks out derivative metrics like wtr to justify his efforts. Honestly vindi, your ebr is new and the numbers will no doubt normalise as you play more battles. But surely even you see that if your approach is bearing so little fruit so far, then perhaps it isn't 'fine'. Maybe find some good players with replays of upper tier scouting and try to learn from them. Spend some time trying to learn the differences in meta between the bot tiers and 8+. It would be far more helpful to you than coming here to try to defend the notion that wtr is a great metric.

 

And yes, the forums have been honed into a deadzone for stat deniers. They come here expecting comfort for their unfounded theories and complaints and rather than sympathetic ears they are mostly shunned for how little basis they have for their theories. If everyone vindi knows hates this place then that says a great deal more about who he knows than what the forums are like.


Edited by Ezz, 06 December 2019 - 08:09 AM.

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CardinalMite #74 Posted 06 December 2019 - 11:35 AM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 05 December 2019 - 10:40 PM, said:

 

The good thing is about the WTR is that it ignores winrate and rated performance, The EBR90 is just fine, and unlike your EBR105, at least cracking above the 1000 average damage despite the teams and lack of late game damage and assist because of the losses.

 

Early days, though I doubt I will ever manage 70k games like you  :P

 

Currently, the Personal Rating calculates the total progress of an account rather than evaluating player performance, which makes for rigid stats that say little of your opponents or personal efficiency. The more battles you’ve been through, the higher your rating.

 

 oof

 

 

Again with laserlike pinpoint accuracy you manage to miss the point. Any compound metric that doesn't factor in ability to win matches is fundamentally flawed. 

 

You can add some adjustment for tier level if you wish to reduce win rate padding by  low tier battles to an overall rating, but you absolutely can't just disregard win rate and be expected to be taken seriously.

 

Otherwise you have a metric that is just as pad-able as WN8 while at the same time for  it be possible to still suck at winning games and being a positive influence on the outcome of any given battle.

 

Frankly all this talk of different metrics is complete garbage anyway. You would be far better off spending less time watching your stats and instead using the time to watch good players stream, learn the maps better, learn weak spots etc..


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jumphonner #75 Posted 06 December 2019 - 11:53 AM

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Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #76 Posted 06 December 2019 - 12:25 PM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 06 December 2019 - 06:40 AM, said:

 

The good thing is about the WTR is that it ignores winrate and rated performance

 

That's all that needs to be known. This thread has been concluded.


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Vindictus_Maximus #77 Posted 06 December 2019 - 12:45 PM

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View Postjumphonner, on 06 December 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

Winning is the only metric that matters as losers have meetings whilst winners have parties.

 

What was Brain Lara's winrate?  How about Ronaldo's winrate?  In fact name me any team sport where winrate is used as a meaningful stat for individuals?

 

The WTR does not count winrates, this is the new reality some here are having trouble coming to grips with.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Vindictus_Maximus, 06 December 2019 - 12:46 PM.


Ezz #78 Posted 06 December 2019 - 12:54 PM

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View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 06 December 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

What was Brain Lara's winrate?  How about Ronaldo's winrate?

Classic 2012 denier logic. Did BL or R play in random teams? If no then try again. If yes, then ding ding ding you win!!!

 

View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 06 December 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

In fact name me any team sport where winrate is used as a meaningful stat for individuals?\

First be so kind as to name a team sport where the teams are random.

 

And if you can't feel free to explain why people care about how many superbowl rings people have. Or how many championships MJ or Lebron have won.

 

View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 06 December 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

The WTR does not count winrates, this is the new reality some here are having trouble coming to grips with.

No we've come to grips with it entirely, which is precisely the reason wtr is viewed as a rather pointless secondary metric (just like many others).


Edited by Ezz, 06 December 2019 - 01:35 PM.

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Vindictus_Maximus #79 Posted 06 December 2019 - 12:54 PM

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View PostFeeTFooD, on 06 December 2019 - 07:28 AM, said:

 You argue that WTR is a good metric because it is independent of winning. We looked at your per vehicle stats and found that there is a sharp drop off in skill and win% as you went up the tiers. We also noticed a large amount of battles played in very powerful low tier vehicles. Your whole argument is trying to convince people that disagree with you that win% is irrelevant of player skill, our argument is the inverse. 
 

You even tried to use Ezz’s EBR stats against your 90s to try and make a point. I haven’t checked his win% but I’m sure it’s significantly higher than yours, and that is what matters more. 
 

 

You are still getting caught up on the wrong stats. You mention the Senlac and Lor40t.

 

They are my money makers and crew trainers, so to make coin,  you have to choose certain tanks where you don't run food and shoot premium ammo. Those two and the TS-5 are my money makers. If I ran food and fired premium, my stats would obvously be far better, but I would be broke. So I just grit my teeth and make do.

 

But coming back to WTR. Regardless of the relatively poor performance of those two tanks, I still do enough to get a mark on the barrel on them, leaving me above the server average of others playing those tanks, so my WTR does not overly suffer anyway - maybe even improves a little.

 

I do love the WTR metric, and bad luck to those whose stats will decline under it,

 

 



Vindictus_Maximus #80 Posted 06 December 2019 - 12:56 PM

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View PostEzz, on 06 December 2019 - 12:54 PM, said:

Classic 2012 denier logic. Did BL or R play in random teams? If no then try again. If yes, then ding ding ding you win!!!

 

Search Brian Lara on cricinfo and tell me his winrate Ezz.

 

He played with some pretty weak teammates, if you can find them you will actually find that he was not in fact a great player, but a 40% shtter.

 

According to your logic anyway....


Edited by Vindictus_Maximus, 06 December 2019 - 12:57 PM.





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