Jump to content


Why WTR is a terrible metric


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
110 replies to this topic

Ezz #81 Posted 06 December 2019 - 12:59 PM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 71144 battles
  • 36,475
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 06 December 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

 

Search Brian Lara on cricinfo and tell me his winrate Ezz.

 

He played with some pretty weak teammates, if you can find them you will actually find that he was not in fact a great player, but a 40% shtter.

 

According to your logic anyway....

Whooooosh...

 

I don't mean to sound overly condescending, but do you understand the concept of a random team?


Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


Ezz #82 Posted 06 December 2019 - 01:11 PM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 71144 battles
  • 36,475
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012
Just to veer closer to topic, one thing i have to give credit to WG for doing is including a filter for their overall ratings to include only upper tier (8+) vehicles in the calc. So while it is yet another secondary metric, at least it will be easy to filter out the seal clubbers. It would be nice if more of the metrics could be filtered in this way.

Edited by Ezz, 06 December 2019 - 01:12 PM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #83 Posted 06 December 2019 - 02:27 PM

    Blue Mountain Aoyama

  • Beta-Tester
  • 79218 battles
  • 7,630
  • [DADDY] DADDY
  • Member since:
    05-30-2012

IS-3A owners

 


Type 4 Medium Tank Chi-To


Puggsley #84 Posted 06 December 2019 - 03:07 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 72583 battles
  • 1,974
  • [-1AR-] -1AR-
  • Member since:
    04-03-2014

Oh man, this guy is a classic. 

 

It's like entering a parallel universe where the meaning of words is reversed and everyone else is wrong because they all disagree with you. Apples are oranges. 

 

VM's world is devoid of logic.


Edited by Puggsley, 06 December 2019 - 03:08 PM.


TotallyNotAReroll #85 Posted 06 December 2019 - 03:24 PM

    Private

  • Member
  • 254 battles
  • 4
  • Member since:
    10-15-2013

View PostPuggsley, on 06 December 2019 - 07:07 AM, said:

Oh man, this guy is a classic. 

 

It's like entering a parallel universe where the meaning of words is reversed and everyone else is wrong because they all disagree with you. Apples are oranges. 

 

VM's world is devoid of logic.

 

I'm starting to understand. Our individual actions in game have an impact on the win loss ratio and that th ebetter we play, the more we win. I have had some bad experiences in some of my tanks but I continue to play them consistently and win more often. WTR is useful for seeing your individual performance on a per vehicle state, but if you're not winning games it means that you're not doing the damage/spots/kills etc at the right place and the right time. It also means you could be too reckless or too conservative. 

We as players have to find the right balance of yolo and camp in order to become good like Ezz.

 

I'm sorry V_M, I agreed with you at first but now I have seen the light.



Saffelicious #86 Posted 07 December 2019 - 09:53 PM

    Master flipper !

  • Live Streamer
  • 37403 battles
  • 3,679
  • Member since:
    12-18-2013

Imagine playing a team game and thinking winning does not matter.

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 
 
Pubbie 1
"You guys run around in t10 tanks with, prem consumables, prem rounds, prem crews and even prem modules and that is not fair on the newbies in t8, how do you expect the server to survive if this is what they get from your clan. Some of us want this server to survive."
Pubbie 2
"What's pathetic and un Australian is you and the other [edited] complaining about those here behind their backs on the other forum. What's pathetic is thinking you are better than others on forums and in the game and big noting yourself when blind Feddy can see your sudden improvement on purchasing vpack"

Vindictus_Maximus #87 Posted 08 December 2019 - 07:40 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 8567 battles
  • 149
  • Member since:
    12-16-2017

The fact remain.

 

WTR judges you an your ability to play a particular tank, and compares you to how others on the server play that particular tank.

 

A T95 Chieftain my be strong enough to slightly lift your winrate, but if you are poor compared to other T95 Chieftain players, your stats will suffer. There will no longer be a 'stat-padding' tank. It will all be compared to the server average. Stronger tanks that lift W/R will be irrelevant to your stats because W/R no longer is factored.

 

WTR calculates spotting assist, damage, kills, use of armor, damage you personally are spotting, and more,  it awards tank class bonuses similar to Ranked Battles formula,, so you are rewarded for playing your tank correctly The WN8 and PR systems do not do this.

 

There are some in this thread, maybe all, whose PR stats are going to take a bit of a dump when WTR replaces the current PR system.

 

Currently, the Personal Rating calculates the total progress of an account rather than evaluating player performance, which makes for rigid stats that say little of your opponents or personal efficiency. The more battles you’ve been through, the higher your rating.

 

If you are one of the ones that suffers in the stats, then it only means you have been underperforming compared to others during the time you have been playing the game. It is all based on server average - you only have yourself to blame if your WTR is less that you current PR.

 

I did not personally devise this formula. I am explaining it, and explaining why I like it - why it is vastly superior to PR and WN8

 

Whether you agree with me, like what I am writing, or whatever, the facts are WTR is coming, winrate will be meaningless, and that's just the way it is.



_stevethegecko_ #88 Posted 08 December 2019 - 07:47 AM

    Major

  • Beta-Tester
  • 29350 battles
  • 13,193
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    03-13-2012

WTR is meaningless if you’re not winning. It’s a competitive game where winning gives you extra rewards. WTR doesn’t give you extra rewards. People who win more often have high WN8 which shows their contribution. WN8 is passable, so is WTR.

I admire your ability to continue to fight a losing battle, but honestly dude. You’re missing the point entirely. Now go and play Hello Kitty Online if you don’t like competitiveness.

 

Oh and my point still stands. The fact that the November #3 in the Panzer 3/4 had a WTR slightly higher than mine but a win% 12% lower means that he is actually less skilled in that tank. Seeing him in action in it chai sniping when the thing makes a good brawler in its own tier padded his WTR but made him lose more often. 


Edited by FeeTFooD, 08 December 2019 - 07:51 AM.

kilig ako


Ezz #89 Posted 08 December 2019 - 07:55 AM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 71144 battles
  • 36,475
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

Vindi do you even read the responses people have made? The issue of battle count in PR has been dealt with. Making something bold (for the second time) doesn't make it a new or particularly crucial point. Battle count only significantly impacts re rolls for their first few k battles, so in terms of impacting on PR only re rolls would care. In other words, that's not a particularly big downside. Granted you may have missed the response or simply didn't understand it, in which case, rather than simply repeating your point, why not ask for someone to explain.

 

As to the comparison between the various derivative metrics, it's like you've just discovered they are shit. WN8 has been shit since its inception yet you're only discovering it now. Pro tip, efficiency and wn7 suck too.

 

As to WTR vs WR - you seem to have also missed all the people explaining to you why WR will remain the primary metric. The goal of the game is to win. Not to farm derivative metrics. Winning is what rewards players. Not wtr.

 

It's like any form of denier i guess - regardless of what is being said, they will ignore the inconvenient bits that don't fit their narrative and just continue on as if those elements don't exist. Are you a flat earther by any chance?


Edited by Ezz, 08 December 2019 - 07:57 AM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


Vindictus_Maximus #90 Posted 08 December 2019 - 07:57 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 8567 battles
  • 149
  • Member since:
    12-16-2017

View PostSaffelicious, on 07 December 2019 - 09:53 PM, said:

Imagine playing a team game and thinking winning does not matter.

 

 

The current top 10 players on the server.

 

<a href='https://i.imgur.com/NklbQ6O.jpg' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>https://i.imgur.com/NklbQ6O.jpg</a>

 

Slav King is consistency at the top. However in terms of winrate he would not even be in the top 1000 players. Cosimo in rank 8 only has a winrate of 53%.

 

Is Cosimo a top 10 player? Or a 53 percenter scrub ?

 

WTR ignores winrate, it judges your ability to play a particular tank, then compares it against others that play the same tank. WTR is a vastly superior metric, people should start adjusting accordingly.

 



_stevethegecko_ #91 Posted 08 December 2019 - 08:05 AM

    Major

  • Beta-Tester
  • 29350 battles
  • 13,193
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    03-13-2012

View PostEzz, on 08 December 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

Vindi do you even read the responses people have made? The issue of battle count in PR has been dealt with. Making something bold (for the second time) doesn't make it a new or particularly crucial point. Battle count only significantly impacts re rolls for their first few k battles, so in terms of impacting on PR only re rolls would care. In other words, that's not a particularly big downside. Granted you may have missed the response or simply didn't understand it, in which case, rather than simply repeating your point, why not ask for someone to explain.

 

As to the comparison between the various derivative metrics, it's like you've just discovered they are shit. WN8 has been shit since its inception yet you're only discovering it now. Pro tip, efficiency and wn7 suck too.

 

As to WTR vs WR - you seem to have also missed all the people explaining to you why WR will remain the primary metric. The goal of the game is to win. Not to farm derivative metrics. Winning is what rewards players. Not wtr.

 

It's like any form of denier i guess - regardless of what is being said, they will ignore the inconvenient bits that don't fit their narrative and just continue on as if those elements don't exist. Are you a flat earther by any chance?

The guy is delusional. 


kilig ako


_stevethegecko_ #92 Posted 08 December 2019 - 08:06 AM

    Major

  • Beta-Tester
  • 29350 battles
  • 13,193
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    03-13-2012

My invitee is #1, does that make him the best?


Edited by FeeTFooD, 08 December 2019 - 08:06 AM.

kilig ako


Ezz #93 Posted 08 December 2019 - 08:15 AM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 71144 battles
  • 36,475
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 08 December 2019 - 09:57 AM, said:

 

The current top 10 players on the server.

 

<a href='https://i.imgur.com/NklbQ6O.jpg' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>https://i.imgur.com/NklbQ6O.jpg</a>

 

Slav King is consistency at the top. However in terms of winrate he would not even be in the top 1000 players. Cosimo in rank 8 only has a winrate of 53%.

 

Is Cosimo a top 10 player? Or a 53 percenter scrub ?

 

WTR ignores winrate, it judges your ability to play a particular tank, then compares it against others that play the same tank. WTR is a vastly superior metric, people should start adjusting accordingly.

 

Just a tip, if you are looking to make a stats based argument, best to look for a decent sized sample as it helps to eliminate obvious anomalies. As you can see the november figures don't have any such glaring issues.

 

As more data comes in for december you'd expect cosimos WR to normalise (he is a 63%er after all).

 

Again you seem to conflate issues with small samples for being something related to the metrics themselves. It doesn't matter what metric you talk about, using a small sample will always unveil oddities. It's like tossing a coin 10 times and attempting to make a conclusion from that sample.


Edited by Ezz, 08 December 2019 - 08:19 AM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


Vindictus_Maximus #94 Posted 08 December 2019 - 09:03 AM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 8567 battles
  • 149
  • Member since:
    12-16-2017

Just a tip, if you want to make a stats based argument, best to look for a larger range of samples, rather than a cherry picked sample, helps to eliminate obvious anomalies

 

The month of October where Slav King was a 51 per-center scrub.

 

 RTVJ3xM.jpg

 

While Slavs winrates for the last 6 months have varied anywhere between 51% - 68%, the WTR has ignored that useless stat to consistantly place him in the top 5 players, month-to-month.

 

You helped back up my point, thanks Ezz.

 

 



Ezz #95 Posted 08 December 2019 - 09:08 AM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 71144 battles
  • 36,475
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

Vindi, do you ever get the feeling like perhaps your hole is getting deeper each time you dig? Granted you've probably only just discovered the whole ratings section, but if you click on the little + you'll get an expanded view. And before you ask, 68 battles is not what would be considered significant in sample terms. Of course the underlying issue is that WG presents this for such small samples in the first place. I mean 40 min battle count basically invalidates it. But that's WG's business i guess.

 

Again, don't confuse issues with sample size for those of what makes a decent metric. (would it help if i put this in bold as you seem to feel that makes things more important for some reason)

 

Honestly, just stop digging.


Edited by Ezz, 08 December 2019 - 09:10 AM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


_stevethegecko_ #96 Posted 08 December 2019 - 09:21 AM

    Major

  • Beta-Tester
  • 29350 battles
  • 13,193
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    03-13-2012

 

For the last 313 games/60 days he has only played 313 battles and only won 61% of them. For the last 1000 battles he has won 64%. Total scrub. 

 

 

 


kilig ako


Ezz #97 Posted 08 December 2019 - 09:27 AM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 71144 battles
  • 36,475
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012
At this point if he simply conceded that his point wasn't so much about wtr being more important than wr, and that it was more about sample size, then it might make sense. Of course in trivially small samples there will be variation in any metric. But again, the failing here is with the sample size, not with the metric. The fact he's still not getting it is bordering on bizarre.

Edited by Ezz, 08 December 2019 - 09:28 AM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


Saffelicious #98 Posted 08 December 2019 - 10:35 AM

    Master flipper !

  • Live Streamer
  • 37403 battles
  • 3,679
  • Member since:
    12-18-2013

This game is about winning,

numbers can be twisted in so many different ways that it's not even funny. 
Prime example is vindis horrible example of slav king who has 30k battles with an overall winrate of 63%

But one tiny sample size after probably 3 marking some turd tank makes vindi thinking he can somehow use this to justify hes argument. 

 

want to know if a player is good,

Look at his tier 10 tanks, Especially the LT/MT/HT tanks, TDs are just obsolete in the current map meta and you cant influence games enough. 

Look at his winrate and then individual damage output in each tank, 

Then you have your answer. 

All other metrics are garbage. 

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 
 
Pubbie 1
"You guys run around in t10 tanks with, prem consumables, prem rounds, prem crews and even prem modules and that is not fair on the newbies in t8, how do you expect the server to survive if this is what they get from your clan. Some of us want this server to survive."
Pubbie 2
"What's pathetic and un Australian is you and the other [edited] complaining about those here behind their backs on the other forum. What's pathetic is thinking you are better than others on forums and in the game and big noting yourself when blind Feddy can see your sudden improvement on purchasing vpack"

Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #99 Posted 08 December 2019 - 10:37 AM

    Blue Mountain Aoyama

  • Beta-Tester
  • 79218 battles
  • 7,630
  • [DADDY] DADDY
  • Member since:
    05-30-2012

Block Quote

 I admire your ability to continue to fight a losing battle

 

That's because WTR doesn't care about losing


Type 4 Medium Tank Chi-To


Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #100 Posted 08 December 2019 - 11:19 AM

    Blue Mountain Aoyama

  • Beta-Tester
  • 79218 battles
  • 7,630
  • [DADDY] DADDY
  • Member since:
    05-30-2012

Block Quote

 Look at his winrate and then individual damage output in each tank, 

 

Just for some useful discussion, do you guys know about unproductive / negative-productive / vampire / unoptimal damage?

 

Damage (dealt by u) that does not result in difference in outcome is unproductive

Negative-productive is causing damage to your team in the process

And vampire is stealing from others (and will fall under one of the above two)

Unoptimal damage is less-useful damage that even if you trade 1:1 (or higher in worse cases), you can still make the team worse off

 

Unproductive: At the end of the game and the battle is already own and the enemy has only 3 arties left. Any damage done at this point has no effect on outcome except personal reward. And then you see that Progetto at the base beeline towards enemy cap.

Or just killstealing a tank which obviously is going to get killed without repercussion anyway (i.e. having to reload is not a problem) because 4 shots are already in-flight towards that tank. Arties take note.

 

Negative-productive: Keep moving in-and-out of the corner to bait an enemy shot when there are teammates sharing that corner so the moment you retreat the enemy just shoots your teammate instead. And then you move in to take the shot while blocking your teammate from doing so. So the overall trade is 1:1 for neutral productivity if you didn't screw up and miss, and most likely you will so the productivity is negative. Your teammate might have handled the encounter better if you didn't exist, at least a 1:1 trade or a better trade if he is good.

Or having two tanks sharing a bush which can only accommodate one. Even if the good player decides to let the bad player have the bush, there is still opportunity cost since you are not making the best use of the position. With two bad players, one or both players will die for nothing.

 

Vampire: Killstealing mentioned above is one. Another scenario is having two LT scout the same thing when one is enough, so the other is just stealing his assist damage after already knowing where the enemy is. (Does not apply if the LT are supporting each other e.g. spreading out attention, killing stuff)

Suiciding your full HP tank to killsteal - The act of using one whole tank for one shot itself falls under simply being bad, but the killstealing itself is unproductive if the guy who, like, did 80% of the damage would have killed easily anyway.

 

Unoptimal damage: Using high tier to trade with low tier is one. Using scout to trade against HT. Or a good player losing HP against bad players while the good player on the enemy team is full HP. Yes aiming good players is a strategy. Arties are a valid strategy.

 

Even aggressive play can boost your damage using the above points: If the team could have won with 1/1/1/1 damage shared between 4 tanks, but since you played aggressively the outcome is 2.5/0.5/0.5/0.5 damage, and may even have downsides since you lost HP - see unoptimal damage. Mopping up is when everybody is playing the most aggressively.

 

Then there is your plain usual doing damage unproductively at the redline.

 

--------------------

 

That's why above a certain threshold (enough to tell us that the player does not suck), damage per battle tells us more about playstyle. Whether that playstyle results in win, well, there's winrate. The guy who gets that Defender (or Invader) medal has lower damage than the guy who just continued farming damage, but guess who has the higher winrate.

 

Add: Want to add on regarding sniping - There is useful sniping which a lot of good players are doing even if done at the redline. Because sniping can 1) Allow more guns to hit a single target as opposed to just a 1:1 fight, 2) Have angles of attack otherwise unachievable due to terrain. In a sense they are similar to arty. And arty is good in Malinvoka.

And this is not appreciated by the game reward system.

Yea, still kind of pissed when my EBR managed to run to the south base in Serene Coast and buttsecks the entire enemy hill yet got no Chev despite doing lots of damage.


Edited by Aoyama_Blue_Mountain, 08 December 2019 - 11:31 AM.

Type 4 Medium Tank Chi-To





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users