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Jackson v Hellcat


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Bushvanker #1 Posted 13 April 2020 - 08:01 AM

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I have played 20 battles in each tank.  They have the same gun and I only fire while stationary yet my damage ratio in the Jackson is over 3 but my Hellcat is just over 1.  Yes the Jackson has more armour but it's not like I last longer in it because it might bounce something.  Same playstyle for both tanks, same options set up on the tank (Camo Net, Binocs and Rammer).  Jackson has a crew heading toward first skill while the Hellcat crew is heading for it's 2nd skill!  Hellcat concealment is 55 but only 42 on the Jackson.  Jackson has a 0.4 sec advantage on reload but it's not like I continually fire the gun on these tanks.  Win ratio for the Jackson is 67% while only 47% on the Hellcat (which I assume is the result of my damage ratio difference)

 

Is there something I am missing or just not getting about the stats of these tanks?  Does MM just favour the Jackson?


Edited by dhi67540, 13 April 2020 - 08:05 AM.


Aoyama_Blue_Mountain #2 Posted 13 April 2020 - 08:46 AM

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You bounce the same in both tanks because people don't shoot what they can't pen.

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CardinalMite #3 Posted 13 April 2020 - 08:53 AM

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Relatively speaking the Jackson does have some armour and will occasionally bounce something. That translates into survivability, so if you are playing them the same, getting spotted and shot at roughly the same point in the match; then that may translate into more opportunities to fire at least once more.

 

Which means since the Hellcat never can be expected to bounce and gets 3x overmatched, if you are playing it the same as the Jackson then you are doing it wrong and not making use of its mobility to run away and set up a new firing position.


Edited by CardinalMite, 13 April 2020 - 08:54 AM.

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Ezz #4 Posted 13 April 2020 - 09:11 AM

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One of the key issues players face with the hellcat is the extra mobility allows them to make more mistakes.

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Bushvanker #5 Posted 13 April 2020 - 09:54 AM

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Perhaps but it is the Hit Rate discrepancy.  Jackson just hits way more shots.  Just had a Hellcat game that cost me 28k credits.  Could not hit an OI at 200m better than 40% of the time.  I'm not talking hitting the part I was aiming at - I'm talking hitting the OI.

mttspiii #6 Posted 13 April 2020 - 10:22 AM

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View Postdhi67540, on 13 April 2020 - 09:54 AM, said:

Perhaps but it is the Hit Rate discrepancy.  Jackson just hits way more shots.  Just had a Hellcat game that cost me 28k credits.  Could not hit an OI at 200m better than 40% of the time.  I'm not talking hitting the part I was aiming at - I'm talking hitting the OI.

 

Jackson has much better gun handling than Hellcat. For values (smaller number is better)

0.22 vs 0.35 when driving or turning the hull

0.15 vs 0.19 when turning the turret

 

It means you can snapshot targets of opportunity, and hit moving targets more reliably, in Jackson. Unlike in Hellcat which has to wait a bit more to get a good bead on the target and will have worse effective accuracy against moving targets, even if it's as big as an O-I, especially when you're in 200m brawling distance against it peeking out from cover.


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MagicalFlyingFox #7 Posted 13 April 2020 - 02:16 PM

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Also the Hellcat is plain faster, which generally means you will have a bigger aiming circle when you stop compared to the Jackson which is much slower. And generally, when things appear, you would stop then fire. 

 

 

The Hellcat just needs you to sit still and aim for longer after you stop. Then you will hit the things. 


Edited by MagicalFlyingFox, 13 April 2020 - 02:17 PM.

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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Bushvanker #8 Posted 14 April 2020 - 08:28 AM

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I don't move - I camp, stationary, and fire at objects when fully aimed.  I then relocate and repeat.  I don't play it like a MT.

MagicalFlyingFox #9 Posted 14 April 2020 - 12:01 PM

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Your damage and winrate difference is more likely due to not using the advantages of the Hellcat over the Jackson.

 

They require different playstyles. Your perception of hitting things is more likely due to your biases, but this can be mitigated by firing at angles closer to the enemy. 

 

You could move closer to the action in a hellcat and run away, which is much harder to do in the Jackson since its slower. 

Maybe your initial deployment is not close enough to the enemy, you are heading to the same positions as the Jackson can reach in the early game and removing the Hellcat advantages.

Or your movements to areas aren't as advanced for the same reason.

 

 

Its really hard to pinpoint exactly what is wrong if there arent replays or videos of a decent sample. 


Edited by MagicalFlyingFox, 14 April 2020 - 12:02 PM.

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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Bushvanker #10 Posted 14 April 2020 - 12:31 PM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 14 April 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

Your damage and winrate difference is more likely due to not using the advantages of the Hellcat over the Jackson.

 

They require different playstyles. Your perception of hitting things is more likely due to your biases, but this can be mitigated by firing at angles closer to the enemy. 

 

You could move closer to the action in a hellcat and run away, which is much harder to do in the Jackson since its slower. 

Maybe your initial deployment is not close enough to the enemy, you are heading to the same positions as the Jackson can reach in the early game and removing the Hellcat advantages.

Or your movements to areas aren't as advanced for the same reason.

 

 

Its really hard to pinpoint exactly what is wrong if there arent replays or videos of a decent sample. 


Good point, but that's more akin to playing like a lightly armoured MT.  Given how slow the turret rotates on these tanks I guess I am a little hesitant....



Bushvanker #11 Posted 14 April 2020 - 03:42 PM

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Having a great game in my Hellcat only to be 1 shot by a tier 5 arty when on the backside of a hill (and it wasn't skill - he was a 40%er).  Just love the RNG in this game.  It will always find some way to screw you - Arty, so balanced and stops camping.

Edited by dhi67540, 14 April 2020 - 03:46 PM.


Bushvanker #12 Posted 14 April 2020 - 04:10 PM

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Finally - a decent Hellcat game on a map conducive to my gameplay.  Battle cost me credits as I apparently pressed the 2 key at some point (don't remember doing it).. http://wotreplays.eu/site/5326570

mttspiii #13 Posted 14 April 2020 - 09:47 PM

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View Postdhi67540, on 14 April 2020 - 08:28 AM, said:

I don't move - I camp, stationary, and fire at objects when fully aimed.  I then relocate and repeat.  I don't play it like a MT.

 

Do you fire at moving targets? Jackson has a slight advantage over Hellcat with moving targets because of better turret bloom.


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MagicalFlyingFox #14 Posted 15 April 2020 - 07:49 PM

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View Postdhi67540, on 14 April 2020 - 06:10 PM, said:

Finally - a decent Hellcat game on a map conducive to my gameplay.  Battle cost me credits as I apparently pressed the 2 key at some point (don't remember doing it).. http://wotreplays.eu/site/5326570

Skimmed through it, I personally dont use that position after the initial deployment - which btw is probably the best place to go for free damage with arty in the game - but you did rotate out of the back at a good time. The Hellcat can break through around the lighthouse too, if you think you can deal with the arty risk. I find you shoot and sit for a while which is potentially dangerous when you get spot. I will always pull back after firing to lower the chances of me getting hit by anything.

 

I hope I sorta helped you rethink how to start games a little bit, so you don't end up playing the Hellcat the same as the Jackson.

 

 


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 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Bushvanker #15 Posted 16 April 2020 - 08:27 AM

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View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 15 April 2020 - 07:49 PM, said:

Skimmed through it, I personally dont use that position after the initial deployment - which btw is probably the best place to go for free damage with arty in the game - but you did rotate out of the back at a good time. The Hellcat can break through around the lighthouse too, if you think you can deal with the arty risk. I find you shoot and sit for a while which is potentially dangerous when you get spot. I will always pull back after firing to lower the chances of me getting hit by anything.

 

I hope I sorta helped you rethink how to start games a little bit, so you don't end up playing the Hellcat the same as the Jackson.

 

 


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CaptainNoch_01 #16 Posted 13 May 2020 - 12:42 PM

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The Hellcat used to be a monster back in the day. WG treated it by nerfing it to the ground, which explains its lackluster gun handling and to a slight degree, its mobility. 

 

Armor was never an issue because it is justified by its sheer mobility even after the nerfs. The Hellcat is supposed to be played like a ninja anyway so if you ever find yourself naked before an OI, KV2 or any tank with a howitzer, you're doing it all wrong.

 

If you want a taste of the Hellcat before it was nerfed, the tier 7 reward, Super Hellcat, is a good introduction. Even at tier 7, I enjoy that tank and is quite good too, which probably demonstrates how much more broken it was at tier 6 back then. 

 

However, while the Jackson is better, the Hellcat leads to turreted tank destroyers while the Jackson doesn't. That is one thing to take note especially if you plan to get either the E3 or E4 or maybe both!


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