Jump to content


Sack the developers and get new ones.

developers fire sack rehire

  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

Poll: Sack the Devs (14 members have cast votes)

Sack the Developers as they are ruining the game

  1. Yes (12 votes [85.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 85.71%

  2. No (2 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

Vote Guests cannot vote Hide poll

bowie031962 #1 Posted 27 June 2020 - 03:15 PM

    Corporal

  • Beta-Tester
  • 27057 battles
  • 87
  • [PANZA] PANZA
  • Member since:
    09-22-2012

In my honest opinion the developers of this game have lost the plot, they have turned the game into a P2W game and have taken all the fun out of the game, for instance:

1. ridiculous wheeled vehicles that bear no semblance to operational vehicle characteristics.

2. an abortion of matchmaking

3. continual nerfing and buffing of vehicles even though they don't need it and don't give it to the ones that do.

4. bias towards certain countries vehicles

5. continually selling the same tanks in specials with nothing new.

6. black market tanks that are the same as 5 (in general).  i.e. nothing that is really black market, and when they do sell them they are in too few quantities and not spread evenly over the servers so that everyone gets an equal chance.   First black market was good, second one was abysmal.

7. continually developing stuff that the players don't want, i.e. Equipment 2.0 is a good example, Shell balancing etc

8. In general, not listening to the player base, and that means not just those that participate in CT and Sandbox.   

9. Introduction of the stun mechanic which in my opinion does virtually nothing.

 

That is just to name a few.   I know that I am not alone in this opinion as you only have to read the forums to work it out.   WG in general don't listen and therefore the above is causing a mass exodus of players.  HK server is a good example 23k down to around 12k.   An Australian server that generally has only 500 to 1k players as most Australians put up with the HK server because you can, at least, get a game.


Edited by bowie031962, 27 June 2020 - 03:53 PM.

Cheers,
Wayne
PANZAC Assault Commander

Don't kill all the stupid people, leave some for the other guys!

May RNG and MM be forever in your favour! (like that will happen).

 


Ezz #2 Posted 27 June 2020 - 03:41 PM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 72315 battles
  • 36,598
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

1 - was a mistake and they basically have said they are broken. To their credit they are attempting to at least balance them somewhat. Who knows how much backlash they'll get for it. I just hope they don't go limp [edited] and nerf the tree versions but leave the prem as borken as it is.

2 - ...... seriously? What is the issue now? Apart from the boring templates, it's basically as balanced as they can make it.

3 - i see it the other way around - it's the fact they don't buff / nerf the tanks that do need it that is the issue. Having a tanks OP being used as an incentive to grind / buy was a mistake they have shown no signs of fixing.

4 - ummm... not exactly a new thing.

5 - they try to keep things exclusive and rare so they retain their value i guess. To be honest i barely ever buy anything anyway so not too fussed.

6 - yeah they turned the BM into a rather cynical affair with the dull offerings, auctions and very little of worth for credits.

7 - ... and crew 2.0... and ooo look, they updated the store....

8 - suspect they listen to the russians and only the russians. But yeah, it's hard to stay very passionate once you realise that your feedback will inevitably be ignored.

9 - it was their way of giving arty something back when they removed all the pen and alpha. I kinda get what they are trying, but to me arty in general is the issue, rather than stun specifically.

 

As to server numbers, sadly despite the injection of vietnamese, korean and chinese players.... yeah, it doesn't seem to be growing all that quick (at all....). I just wish they wouldn't stuff routing to HK with every patch so i'm not faced with the choice of 240 ping and battles, or playing queue simulator on anz.

 

I'd probably add in their continual skirting of issues such as botting and illegal mod use. Botting at least could be fixed thru economic tweaks, while ban waves for cheats once every few months could be drastically increased in frequency. I'd love weekly sweeps.


Edited by Ezz, 27 June 2020 - 03:46 PM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


bowie031962 #3 Posted 27 June 2020 - 03:56 PM

    Corporal

  • Beta-Tester
  • 27057 battles
  • 87
  • [PANZA] PANZA
  • Member since:
    09-22-2012

View PostEzz, on 27 June 2020 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'd probably add in their continual skirting of issues such as botting and illegal mod use. Botting at least could be fixed thru economic tweaks, while ban waves for cheats once every few months could be drastically increased in frequency. I'd love weekly sweeps.

Ezz Totally agree with the above statement.   They don't go far enough to actually cause an impact as most banned players just buy an account or start a new one and continue to use the cheats.


Cheers,
Wayne
PANZAC Assault Commander

Don't kill all the stupid people, leave some for the other guys!

May RNG and MM be forever in your favour! (like that will happen).

 


MagicalFlyingFox #4 Posted 27 June 2020 - 04:22 PM

    Destroyer of Tier 6 CW

  • Beta-Tester
  • 34925 battles
  • 13,729
  • [ATLUS] ATLUS
  • Member since:
    10-03-2012

Wargaming haven't done their continual buffing/nerfing and general balancing of tanks for at least 4 years.

 

The only changes are things they have done are some changes to things that are broken, 6-12 months afterwards.


http://www.theuselessweb.com/

 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


spacewolf #5 Posted 27 June 2020 - 06:17 PM

    I still think it's morally wrong so in fact I'm right.

  • Beta-Tester
  • 75898 battles
  • 2,974
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    09-30-2012

View PostMagicalFlyingFox, on 27 June 2020 - 06:22 PM, said:

Wargaming haven't done their continual buffing/nerfing and general balancing of tanks for at least 4 years.

 

I'd say longer. Back when it was world of type59's, both the 59 and Lowe got nerfed with the 59 getting a final round of nerfs after it stopped being sold. 


Proudly sponsored by WG

 

 


Vindictus_Maximus #6 Posted 27 June 2020 - 07:03 PM

    Sergeant

  • Member
  • 9203 battles
  • 152
  • Member since:
    12-16-2017

Its funny reading salty posts. Here is one one on Blitz  I just read on page1 in Steam.

 

N6MpcaK.jpg

 

Typical sook like you often see here who complains, says the game sucks, then goes on an plays another 90 hours in the next 21 days. pretty funny

 

Myself... the one and only real complaint with the devs was the stupid +2 matchmaking and the fact that you could not get a game on the ANZ server during the day.  Both of which they have solved...

 

Conversion to HD was pretty sweet. Tank rewards, and Battle Pass are also pretty sweet with so many rewards allowing pretty much F2P gaming for me compared to the boring and limited missions you got a couple of years back. Frontlines  and the other special mode events also add a nice bit of variety. Regular tech trees are added. New maps always coming in too. I give the devs 9/10, they are not deserving of this sort of criticism

 

The only thing I don't like about this game are the people you play with. Total scum and villainy, I wish I could blow up all 29 others in any random game I spawn into..

 

I would like this game a hell of a lot more if the devs started developing PvE modes/campaigns, that I could buy off Steam as DLCs and play offline.

 



CardinalMite #7 Posted 27 June 2020 - 07:23 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 31372 battles
  • 1,318
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    04-18-2014

View Postbowie031962, on 27 June 2020 - 07:15 AM, said:

2. an abortion of matchmaking

3. continual nerfing and buffing of vehicles even though they don't need it and don't give it to the ones that do.

2. MM is way better than it used to be and frankly I  don't see much improvement that can be made without utterly breaking queue times. Not saying it is perfect,  it isn't, but many people don't get that it has to be a compromise. 

 

3. That is the complete opposite of what WG have done. One of the biggest criticisms you could make against WG is that they don't balance stuff enough. They release broken stuff OP (Defender, OBJ 279e, 430U etc.) then leave it for ages without significant rebalance. Alternatively they release UP British lights and leave them to be left unused by players because how rubbish they are.

 

They never nerf premiums they should and never buff dozens of tech tree tanks they should either; in part because they don't want to lose sales of premiums to free tech tree alternatives.

 

They need to rebalance, little and often. When they do finally touch stuff at the moment they have a habit of going from one extreme to the other and not fixing the mistakes for ages.

 

Things like server numbers would improve if the playerbase believed that balance was a real thing and not just a marketing tool. Same for prevention of bots and clamping down on cheaters and riggers.


Edited by CardinalMite, 27 June 2020 - 07:26 PM.

“Holiday ops is balanced for Asia because a good player opening 11 boxes will get just as many decorations as a noob opening 75..”—.Murazor new head of global festive events.

 

"It's like you literally dont read your own posts, let alone others, make up instead what you wished others said, then put a non-sensical counter argument to that imagined post."

 

"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."


FramFramson #8 Posted 28 June 2020 - 02:10 AM

    Major

  • Member
  • 48769 battles
  • 3,602
  • [FLEX] FLEX
  • Member since:
    02-22-2015

View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 27 June 2020 - 06:03 AM, said:

Its funny reading salty posts. Here is one one on Blitz  I just read on page1 in Steam.

 

N6MpcaK.jpg

 

Typical sook like you often see here who complains, says the game sucks, then goes on an plays another 90 hours in the next 21 days. pretty funny

 

Myself... the one and only real complaint with the devs was the stupid +2 matchmaking and the fact that you could not get a game on the ANZ server during the day.  Both of which they have solved...

 

Conversion to HD was pretty sweet. Tank rewards, and Battle Pass are also pretty sweet with so many rewards allowing pretty much F2P gaming for me compared to the boring and limited missions you got a couple of years back. Frontlines  and the other special mode events also add a nice bit of variety. Regular tech trees are added. New maps always coming in too. I give the devs 9/10, they are not deserving of this sort of criticism

 

The only thing I don't like about this game are the people you play with. Total scum and villainy, I wish I could blow up all 29 others in any random game I spawn into..

 

I would like this game a hell of a lot more if the devs started developing PvE modes/campaigns, that I could buy off Steam as DLCs and play offline.

 

 

I mean, he's not wrong. We just have Stockholm Minsk Syndrome.


LT-playing masochist. It's too much fun to be a mosquito.


NameWasStolenStresslevel #9 Posted 28 June 2020 - 10:33 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 47636 battles
  • 1,263
  • Member since:
    01-19-2015

I once saw this scorpion G who couldnt pen a LOWE in the open, he was moving back in forth behind the bush and still getting lit and he could not understand why he wasnt penning the LOWE even tho I could see the noob autoaiming and he said "buf I am firing gold" while shooting the LOWE from behind the bush and thinking that bushes are magic and you get invisible behind it as long as u are 15m behind it.

 

He later said "This RNG made me lose this game" and I just blacklisted him and hoped to never have to watch this again which I still repeteadly do everyday.. 

 

The good thing about this game is that people from all ages, all potato computers you can imagine, all kind of disabilities can play the game. However the game also attracts peoples who (in most cases end up as arty players) are clearly unaware of many game mechanics. Another good thing about this game is that if anything go wrong, you can blame so many things:

 

EBR

RNG

TEAMS

LAG

P2W

 

Not saying the game has no many flaws, indeed it needs lots of fixing yet. I am saying there are lots of bad players finding confort that they can blame somethign really quick and still get away from the fact that they are just bad both at average basis and at the moment they are trying to get away with by blaming something else.

 

This is one of the easiest games in the world to play as casual, and this explain why we have 5 minutes battles, because once people realize they can blame anything else but themselves, they instantly became the worst enemy of their own team.

 

Game is good for casual play, so try to change mindset if you are just a casual player, instead of complaining about everything, just play for fun!!! Get a bigger tank with more HP and live longer those short battles!!!!


Edited by NameWasStolenStresslevel, 28 June 2020 - 11:18 AM.

Having META problems?

 #Hashtag break the META

     (HAHAGHa i must have drank somethin)

             https://worldoftanks.asia/en/hall-of-fame/vehicles/A100_T49/#wot&w_ts=overall&w_nb=500

         Currently Hall of Fame T49's number 1 in WTR!!! (parameters are *battles +500* and *since 2014's* ranking)


bowie031962 #10 Posted 28 June 2020 - 11:27 AM

    Corporal

  • Beta-Tester
  • 27057 battles
  • 87
  • [PANZA] PANZA
  • Member since:
    09-22-2012

View PostNameWasStolenStresslevel, on 28 June 2020 - 12:33 PM, said:

I once saw this scorpion G who couldnt pen a LOWE in the open, he was moving back in forth behind the bush and still getting lit and he could not understand why he wasnt penning the LOWE even tho I could see the noob autoaiming and he said "buf I am firing gold" while shooting the LOWE from behind the bush and thinking that bushes are magic and you get invisible behind it as long as u are 15m behind it.

 

He later said "This RNG made me lose this game" and I just blacklisted him and hoped to never have to watch this. 

 

The good thing about this game is that people from all ages, all potato computers you can imagine, all kind of disabilities can play the game. Whoever the game also attracts peoples who (in most cases end up as arty players) are clearly unaware of many game mechanics, and another good thing about this game is that if anything go wrong, you can blame so many things:

 

EBR

RNG

TEAMS

LAG

P2W

 

This is one of the easiest games in the world to play as casual, and this explain why we have 5 minutes battles, because once people realize they can blame anything else but themselves, they instantly became the worst enemy of their own team.

 

Not saying the game has flaws, just saying there are lots of shit players finding confort that they can blame somethign really quick and still get away from the fact that they are shit both at average basis and at the moment they are trying to get away with by blaming something else.

Interesting comeback although I do not agree with most of the comments.   There are definitely a lot of sh*t players out there that probably do meet your criteria, but then there are lots who are good players and they have the same view as I, more or less.   The developers are taking the game in the wrong direction.   Also, I agree with you that I don't know how it is WG's fault for ping (that is completely beyond wargaming to fix unless they move the servers) or teams (you either make them or accept them, that is definitely a player problem. We can, however apportion "blame" against poor tank mechanics and P2W.    Don't get me wrong I have been playing this game for 8 years and I enjoy it, maybe I have become disillusioned with the changes that are taking place and/or WG not addressing the real problems with the game.   I have lived through all the iterations, including the bad old CW cheat days that destroyed a lot of clan's spirit, it nearly did me in for the record.   More needs to be done against cheats, more needs to be done about balancing vehicles so that they are semi realistic and yet still fun to play, and yes here the obvious one is the EBR's and their completely out of whack capabilities.   


Cheers,
Wayne
PANZAC Assault Commander

Don't kill all the stupid people, leave some for the other guys!

May RNG and MM be forever in your favour! (like that will happen).

 


Ezz #11 Posted 28 June 2020 - 11:47 AM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 72315 battles
  • 36,598
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

View Postbowie031962, on 28 June 2020 - 01:27 PM, said:

I don't know how it is WG's fault for ping (that is completely beyond wargaming to fix unless they move the servers)

It's a bit of an aside, but wg's networking people work with various ISPs to optimise routing. For my isp it's usually a 100ms reduction once optimised (yes i could pay for mudfish etc. but i would rather not). Sometimes they are quicker to get routing issues sorted than this patch however.


Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


wasaabi #12 Posted 28 June 2020 - 12:15 PM

    This Dude Abides

  • Senior Moderator
  • 22843 battles
  • 6,846
  • [KINGS] KINGS
  • Member since:
    07-15-2012

View PostEzz, on 28 June 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

It's a bit of an aside, but wg's networking people work with various ISPs to optimise routing. For my isp it's usually a 100ms reduction once optimised (yes i could pay for mudfish etc. but i would rather not). Sometimes they are quicker to get routing issues sorted than this patch however.

 

ISPs are responsible for routing to WG and WG are responsible for the return route.  If the routing is asymmetric that can lead to performance issues but in most cases it is the forward route that the ISP allows that is responsible.   What WG have done in the past is get involved with ISPs to help them understand if their routing is not optimal but getting WG to engage at that level typically only happens when there is a severe issue.


                  

Ezz #13 Posted 28 June 2020 - 12:22 PM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 72315 battles
  • 36,598
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012

View Postwasaabi, on 28 June 2020 - 02:15 PM, said:

ISPs are responsible for routing to WG and WG are responsible for the return route.  If the routing is asymmetric that can lead to performance issues but in most cases it is the forward route that the ISP allows that is responsible.   What WG have done in the past is get involved with ISPs to help them understand if their routing is not optimal but getting WG to engage at that level typically only happens when there is a severe issue.

The point is that it's a complex problem that wg can and do have a means of improving for their player base. It may not be solely their 'fault', but they can do things to fix it. The issue is exacerbated by the typically useless first tier support provided by both wg and the ISPs.


Edited by Ezz, 28 June 2020 - 12:27 PM.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


LonesomeWombat #14 Posted 28 June 2020 - 01:35 PM

    Private

  • Member
  • 154 battles
  • 0
  • [WOMBA] WOMBA
  • Member since:
    03-25-2018

View PostVindictus_Maximus, on 27 June 2020 - 07:03 PM, said:

Its funny reading salty posts. Here is one one on Blitz  I just read on page1 in Steam.

 

N6MpcaK.jpg

 

Typical sook like you often see here who complains, says the game sucks, then goes on an plays another 90 hours in the next 21 days. pretty funny

 

Myself... the one and only real complaint with the devs was the stupid +2 matchmaking and the fact that you could not get a game on the ANZ server during the day.  Both of which they have solved...

 

Conversion to HD was pretty sweet. Tank rewards, and Battle Pass are also pretty sweet with so many rewards allowing pretty much F2P gaming for me compared to the boring and limited missions you got a couple of years back. Frontlines  and the other special mode events also add a nice bit of variety. Regular tech trees are added. New maps always coming in too. I give the devs 9/10, they are not deserving of this sort of criticism

 

The only thing I don't like about this game are the people you play with. Total scum and villainy, I wish I could blow up all 29 others in any random game I spawn into..

 

I would like this game a hell of a lot more if the devs started developing PvE modes/campaigns, that I could buy off Steam as DLCs and play offline.

 

Oh the purple circle, always pathetic whether on forums or in the work place. 



NameWasStolenStresslevel #15 Posted 28 June 2020 - 07:48 PM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 47636 battles
  • 1,263
  • Member since:
    01-19-2015

View PostLonesomeWombat, on 28 June 2020 - 02:35 PM, said:

Oh the purple circle, always pathetic whether on forums or in the work place. 

 

And to think that this game is balanced based on the opinion of the "brown circle". 


Having META problems?

 #Hashtag break the META

     (HAHAGHa i must have drank somethin)

             https://worldoftanks.asia/en/hall-of-fame/vehicles/A100_T49/#wot&w_ts=overall&w_nb=500

         Currently Hall of Fame T49's number 1 in WTR!!! (parameters are *battles +500* and *since 2014's* ranking)


MagicalFlyingFox #16 Posted 28 June 2020 - 08:06 PM

    Destroyer of Tier 6 CW

  • Beta-Tester
  • 34925 battles
  • 13,729
  • [ATLUS] ATLUS
  • Member since:
    10-03-2012
117 battle alt here to give us the besterest posts ever

http://www.theuselessweb.com/

 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Ezz #17 Posted 28 June 2020 - 09:40 PM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 72315 battles
  • 36,598
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012
What is a purple circle anyway?

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


MagicalFlyingFox #18 Posted 28 June 2020 - 09:56 PM

    Destroyer of Tier 6 CW

  • Beta-Tester
  • 34925 battles
  • 13,729
  • [ATLUS] ATLUS
  • Member since:
    10-03-2012
Are they full of eggplants?

http://www.theuselessweb.com/

 A. Guy on 02 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Destroyer of Tier 6 CW... says it all about you.


Ezz #19 Posted 28 June 2020 - 10:01 PM

    How many flipping posts do I need to get past Major?

  • Beta-Tester
  • 72315 battles
  • 36,598
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    07-17-2012
Yeah, but in the work place? And it's not even a circle. I'm really confused.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

>9000 cynicism brought to you by P2W, RIP Balance and the Cartoon Connection

R. Pubbie: "why are all PBKAC players so rude, arrogant and nasty? and why do Mods favor them?"


NZ_Tanker #20 Posted 28 June 2020 - 11:42 PM

    Corporal

  • Member
  • 6330 battles
  • 12
  • [-VVV-] -VVV-
  • Member since:
    11-08-2012

View Postbowie031962, on 27 June 2020 - 08:15 PM, said:

In my honest opinion the developers of this game have lost the plot, they have turned the game into a P2W game and have taken all the fun out of the game, for instance:

1. ridiculous wheeled vehicles that bear no semblance to operational vehicle characteristics.

2. an abortion of matchmaking

3. continual nerfing and buffing of vehicles even though they don't need it and don't give it to the ones that do.

4. bias towards certain countries vehicles

5. continually selling the same tanks in specials with nothing new.

6. black market tanks that are the same as 5 (in general).  i.e. nothing that is really black market, and when they do sell them they are in too few quantities and not spread evenly over the servers so that everyone gets an equal chance.   First black market was good, second one was abysmal.

7. continually developing stuff that the players don't want, i.e. Equipment 2.0 is a good example, Shell balancing etc

8. In general, not listening to the player base, and that means not just those that participate in CT and Sandbox.   

9. Introduction of the stun mechanic which in my opinion does virtually nothing.

 

That is just to name a few.   I know that I am not alone in this opinion as you only have to read the forums to work it out.   WG in general don't listen and therefore the above is causing a mass exodus of players.  HK server is a good example 23k down to around 12k.   An Australian server that generally has only 500 to 1k players as most Australians put up with the HK server because you can, at least, get a game.

 

1. wheeler been a problem for me for 8 months yet still waiting for that Nerf they been in game since feb 2019 long enough for some changers! sometimes there is far to many wheelers on both teams.

2. MM is bad play heaps tier 7 last 3 days most time me and clan member in top 5 we top tier 80% time today we play tier 8 we go against tier 10 90% time and really nothing we can do against tier 10 firing gold yes its apart of the game but tier 8 vs 10 might as well afk 

3. could buff tanks like tiger 2 its armour is bad. t32 gun is bad that needs a buff. 

4. Russia gets everything almost. 

5. Show me the money. im surprise on how many tanks go on display for sale each week its alot totally farming real money.

6. black market was a joke most tanks were gone before i gota chance to look. 

7. nothing wrong with it but never passes testing. and test server has 500ms from new zealand so no point trying to test. they bought one new map in. but so many old maps were removed they could of try to develop them into being better maps. 

8. stun is a joke. they took out the damage to ur own team yet you can stun your own team. should see some of crazy pms i get when i mistake hit them with enemy tank. 







Also tagged with developers, fire, sack, rehire

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users