8 replies to this topic

[W0NKIFIDECKUF]

I would like to ask if the last tank developed by Watson from the New South Wales Railway Company with the twin 25 pounder guns could be considered as a Tier 8 Premium tank. You already have the base for it in game as the AC4 with the 17 pounder. The reason a turret was modified for the sentinel to house the twin 25's was due to delays in supplies and they needed to see if the tank in it's current form could handle the recoil of the 17 pounder, so they devised a plan and mounted the Twin 25's.  They actually mounted the twin 25's on the AC E1 chassis for the test bed of the twin 25's and the first trials with the dual 25-pounders began in October of 1942. A mount for the 17-pounder was produced in late October. This was the first tank with this gun (the A30 doesn't count, as it was a tank destroyer). The converted tank began trials on November 11th and passed them successfully. The turret ring diameter would be increased to 1823 mm (even bigger than the Tiger's). Ammunition capacity was to be increased to at least 74 rounds. The  25-pounder (88 mm) field gun. Its penetration characteristics were somewhere between the 2-pounder and 6-pounder also. The result was a strange volley-firing hybrid with %25 more recoil than the 17 pounder...and still passed the testing.

 

There is intel to suggest that there were plans to also increase the frontal armor of the AC IV to 75mm, even though as it is now in game the AC4 has 65mm as a Tier 6 compared to the M4 REV's 41mm frontal armor at Tier 8 so I am certain the AC E1 could  handle the pace being a Tier 8 Premium.

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Edited by Rumpl, 28 September 2020 - 02:23 PM.

[mttspiii]

Might be a hard sell as a tier 8 prem. The 25-pdr lacks the penetration since it's more of a gun-howitzer, not a dedicated tank gun.

 

25-pdr is already in WoT as a gun for tier 4 UK TD Alecto. 71/92/30 pen doesn't look too good for its tier, nor does its 180/180/100 alpha. Even with proper alpha (240/240/320) for its 87.6mm caliber, the low pen on the 25-pdr is still an issue.

 

Might work well as a tier 5-6 tank though.

[W0NKIFIDECKUF]

mttspiii, on 28 September 2020 - 08:25 AM, said:

Might be a hard sell as a tier 8 prem. The 25-pdr lacks the penetration since it's more of a gun-howitzer, not a dedicated tank gun.

 

25-pdr is already in WoT as a gun for tier 4 UK TD Alecto. 71/92/30 pen doesn't look too good for its tier, nor does its 180/180/100 alpha. Even with proper alpha (240/240/320) for its 87.6mm caliber, the low pen on the 25-pdr is still an issue.

 

Might work well as a tier 5-6 tank though.

Do you know where WG got the Ballistics for the 25 Pdr? The max Pen of the AP round @500 yards with max angle of 30 Deg against MQ armor  was 63mm. But I am sure you could use it like the KV2 with just pure HE rounds.

 

 

Edited by Rumpl, 28 September 2020 - 09:35 PM.

[obj_19]

Interesting.. If the 20-pdr is smaller than the 25-pdr... why does it have more alpha? is alpha rated on not just gun size but also on the shell velocity, pen, and type of shell? (like O-I having APHE, and the 105 L7's apcr being APDS, The turtle 1 having apbc, apdsfs and also the 105 L7's standard HE being Hesh)

about this project... Would it fire in succession like the MTLS 1G14?? or would it be like the standard soviet DB line where it has 3 fire modes??

 

I think after a pen buff it'll be great at tier 8. Also alpha buff. And make it less accurate than alecto because double mount and because increased recoil.

 

How about pen being 202 on ap, and on APCR ( or also premium AP, i played alecto, i don't remember shell types) Being around 260-70 maybe...

Alpha is changed to bout 220 because smaller than the german 88, then reload becomes longer due to double barrel.

So a double shot would do roughly about...  352-484 damage (Min-Max). That's about a single shot from the badger. I think shell velocity would be this tank's achilles heel. No meaningful armor at tier 8, Plus shell velocity'd make it terrible. The gun screams brawl, armor screams snipe. But if.... If wg was willing to make it shoot HE+Premium HE... Increase the shell velocity a smidge and raise the alpha to about... 500 on both types of shells.... It'd be a great tier 8 TD style MT. (like the raviolirise). For a full penetration... It'd be 950-1250 dmg, and a non pen on a double shot can give 300-500 damage.. 600-700 maybe. It'd roll like the 183 during a doubleshot if it's shell alpha was 500. Maybe 520 or 490 to buff/nerf a little..

 

Personally, i think the reload must be fast true to the tanks of the british empire. (ozzies included.) maybe 8 secs (20-pdr, 85mm loads in 6 secs) and 2.5 secs to switch to the second barrel. Double shot priming takes a little longer... and accuracy decreases a lot in a double shot (over 50% more inaccurate, during a single shot, accuracy can b on par with 152mm.. 0.43 or 0.4, then during a double shot, to .83/.80 depending on crew skills and you have the perfect derpalicious british tier 8 premium!  unlike the weird new autoloader.. i think it's op. this AC-4 would be perfectly balanced imo. No armor, horrible gun, deadly alpha in a double shot with premium Hesh (probably never fired hesh but wg doesnt mind for "gameplay" it becomes a glass cannon.) It'll have low health like raviolise and comparable stats. It'll be a deathstar-ravilose hybrid based on gameplay.

 

[W0NKIFIDECKUF]

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 Personally, i think the reload must be fast true to the tanks of the british empire. (ozzies included.) maybe 8 secs (20-pdr, 85mm loads in 6 secs) and 2.5 secs to switch to the second barrel. Double shot priming takes a little longer..

 

Well the 25 Pounder did have two part ammunition just like the German 128mm, so I think that the reload would need to be longer. There were two types of cartridge. The "Normal" cartridge contained three cloth charge bags (coloured red, white and blue). White and/or blue bags would be removed from the cartridge to give "Charge 1" or "Charge 2", leaving all three bags in the cartridge case gave "Charge 3". The cartridge case was closed at the top with a leatherboard cup. The second type of cartridge was "Super", which provided one charge only. The cup could not be removed from the cartridge case. In 1943, an Incremental Charge of 5.5 oz (160 g) of cordite ("Super-plus&quot was introduced to raise the muzzle velocity when firing AP shot with charge Super; this required a muzzlebrake to be fitted. Adoption of "upper-register" (high-angle) fire needed more charges to improve the range overlap. This led to the development of the "Intermediate Increment" of 4oz cordite, which was introduced in 1944. The bags were striped red and white to indicate that they should only be used with Charges 1 and 2. When one bag was used with Charge 1 it provided Charge 1 1/2. When one was added to Charge 2 it provided Charge 2 1/3, and two bags, Charge 2 2/3. This allowed a maximum of seven charges instead of four.

Block Quote

 How about pen being 202 on ap, and on APCR ( or also premium AP, i played alecto, i don't remember shell types) Being around 260-70 maybe...

 The 25 Pounder never had APCR

The rounds it had were the solid AP (9.1kg) solid shot which was later replaced by the APBC, HE streamlined shell with a 5/10 CRH ogive and boat tail with the explosive filling varied between 450-900g of TNT (854-1708 kilojoules of explosive energy)To add to this the Canadians were also developing a Shape Charged Anti-tank round for the 25 Pounder also.

 

 

Edited by Rumpl, 29 September 2020 - 01:54 PM.

[obj_19]

Rumpl, on 29 September 2020 - 10:50 AM, said:

 

Well the 25 Pounder did have two part ammunition just like the German 128mm, so I think that the reload would need to be longer. There were two types of cartridge. The "Normal" cartridge contained three cloth charge bags (coloured red, white and blue). White and/or blue bags would be removed from the cartridge to give "Charge 1" or "Charge 2", leaving all three bags in the cartridge case gave "Charge 3". The cartridge case was closed at the top with a leatherboard cup. The second type of cartridge was "Super", which provided one charge only. The cup could not be removed from the cartridge case. In 1943, an Incremental Charge of 5.5 oz (160 g) of cordite ("Super-plus&quot was introduced to raise the muzzle velocity when firing AP shot with charge Super; this required a muzzlebrake to be fitted. Adoption of "upper-register" (high-angle) fire needed more charges to improve the range overlap. This led to the development of the "Intermediate Increment" of 4oz cordite, which was introduced in 1944. The bags were striped red and white to indicate that they should only be used with Charges 1 and 2. When one bag was used with Charge 1 it provided Charge 1 1/2. When one was added to Charge 2 it provided Charge 2 1/3, and two bags, Charge 2 2/3. This allowed a maximum of seven charges instead of four.

 The 25 Pounder never had APCR

The rounds it had were the solid AP (9.1kg) solid shot which was later replaced by the APBC, HE streamlined shell with a 5/10 CRH ogive and boat tail with the explosive filling varied between 450-900g of TNT (854-1708 kilojoules of explosive energy)To add to this the Canadians were also developing a Shape Charged Anti-tank round for the 25 Pounder also.

 

 

Therefore, it has 2 gun selections. The muzzled one, and non- muzzled. Non-muzzled is stock, has less pen due to rounds lacking the super-charge.

Muzzled is top gun, has higher pen.

Load is slower like you said, so from 6 seconds to 9 secs per gun, 2.5 switching, and a full 5 secs for a double prime.

Ammuntion is AP, HE for stock gun.

Ammo for top gun is APBC (higher velocity as ballistic cap and the extra charge for thr muzzled gun, and maybe a few mm extra pen for gameplay reasons), then a HEAT (shaped charge, faster than normal shells like su 152. Heat shell is faster than AP and HE for the 152 by 200m/s) and finally HE (velocity increased, same pen)

 

This might actually work as a in-game vehicle.

 

the 450-900g tnt is very roughly a tenth of the force of the 183mm on the 4005. That shell is 49.5(4??) KGs.

Edited by obj_19, 29 September 2020 - 05:27 PM.

[W0NKIFIDECKUF]

The HE round on the BL 7,2 inch Howitzer on the FV4005 was 202 pounds (92Kg) if that is what you were asking?

Edited by Rumpl, 29 September 2020 - 06:03 PM.

[mttspiii]

Rumpl, on 28 September 2020 - 09:34 PM, said:

Do you know where WG got the Ballistics for the 25 Pdr? The max Pen of the AP round @500 yards with max angle of 30 Deg against MQ armor  was 63mm. But I am sure you could use it like the KV2 with just pure HE rounds.

 

WG is probably using the same source as you do. 63mm at 30^o is 72.75mm effective, which is close enough to the in-game penetration value of 71mm (for the record, 61.5mm at 30^o is 71.01mm effective).

 

An alternative configuration for the 25-pdr is found in the in-game Sexton I premium SPG, with HE/AP/AP loadout has 44/92/71 penetration for 280/180/180 alpha.

 

320 alpha HE at tier 8 is problematic though, most tank could take 320 alpha HE with minimal damage. Even something like a T26E4 Super Pershing would be immune to the Sentwinel's HE rounds frontally with its spaced armor.

 

obj_19, on 29 September 2020 - 10:40 AM, said:

Interesting.. If the 20-pdr is smaller than the 25-pdr... why does it have more alpha? is alpha rated on not just gun size but also on the shell velocity, pen, and type of shell?

about this project... Would it fire in succession like the MTLS 1G14?? or would it be like the standard soviet DB line where it has 3 fire modes??

I think it has to do with tier, or "tech level".

Same way the 105mm L7 has 390 alpha when that same caliber for other guns range from 300-320 alpha.

Or the 122mm derp gun on KV-1 having 450 HE alpha when the 122mm D25T has 530 HE alpha

Or the Bison having 400 alpha for the same 150mm caliber as a Type 5's 1400 900 alpha.

 

But still, at less than 90mm, its alpha with AP will probably be at most only up to 280, with HE 370 (basing on TL-1 LPC's "super" 90mm stats). Even the D25T's 530 HE alpha is currently underwhelming; 370 HE alpha would be bad even if twin-linked because armor would absorb damage from both shells instead of a larger round bypassing the damage reduction of armor only once.

Rumpl, on 29 September 2020 - 01:50 PM, said:

The 25 Pounder never had APCR

The rounds it had were the solid AP (9.1kg) solid shot which was later replaced by the APBC, HE streamlined shell with a 5/10 CRH ogive and boat tail with the explosive filling varied between 450-900g of TNT (854-1708 kilojoules of explosive energy)To add to this the Canadians were also developing a Shape Charged Anti-tank round for the 25 Pounder also.

 

That said, the Canadian 25-pdr HEAT rounds...do you have data on its performance? Thing about HEAT is that early HEAT rounds have penetration proportional to its caliber only (unlike AP or APCR where shell velocity is a factor as well), which means can probably extrapolate on that by comparing it to British howitzers of a similar caliber, such as the 3.7" Howitzer in-game mounted on the Churchill VII and Cromwell.

 

The 94mm howitzer has 110 pen with HEAT, 280 alpha. 25-pdr is 87.6mm, so its HEAT rounds are at roughly 102-103mm penetration. The Sentwinel with either AP, HE, or HEAT is still a tough sell for tier 8, though it is an excellent tank for tier 5, which makes sense since it's a predecessor for the AC IV.

 

obj_19, on 29 September 2020 - 10:40 AM, said:

the perfect derpalicious british tier 8 premium! 

Looking forward to a premium tank to complement the British AVRE line. Centurion with dozer blade and 165mm HESH derp gun just because it's fun.

[W0NKIFIDECKUF]

Block Quote

 That said, the Canadian 25-pdr HEAT rounds...do you have data on its performance? 

 

I  am looking into that