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Don't understand HE changes at all


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SadSack #1 Posted 01 August 2021 - 01:14 AM

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Since the  patch HE hasn't worked at all for me at all, i gave up using it on KV-2 as unless it pens every hit does 0 damage.

But now I find my (180mm) Emil turret gets big damage from lower VII tier (86mm) HE shells. 3 shot even doing 147, 424 and 186 damage.

Every hit doing damage. no 0 damage shots the only shell it bounced was one HEAT shell.

I totally don't get it at all.

I thought if HE didnt pen it does 0 damage but now i find that's not true.

 

https://imgur.com/a/TphDkg2

https://imgur.com/gallery/coh6BqN

 


Edited by SadSack, 03 August 2021 - 11:02 AM.

 

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Ezz #2 Posted 01 August 2021 - 07:01 AM

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Interesting. Put up the replay and we'll have a look.

Who the [edited] are you? Get Spoofed! "wouldn't be a proper WG balance change if they didn't [edited] something up after all "

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SadSack #3 Posted 02 August 2021 - 04:23 PM

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i posted screen shot i very badly in game so dont want post replay - 0 damage

I just couldn't work out why HE was doing me such big damage without penetrating


 

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mttspiii #4 Posted 03 August 2021 - 11:51 AM

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The 130-180 damage seems good for Emil I's turret, probably a typical 122mm HE round or larger.

 

The 424 damage suggests being penetrated by a smaller HE round on the side of the turret (remember Emils have really weak turret sides), or getting blapped by something larger than a 152mm derp.


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Ezz #5 Posted 03 August 2021 - 12:43 PM

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Isn't just under the gun relatively weak on emils? Can't recall but it would explain the higher roll. Sounds about right tho.

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SadSack #6 Posted 03 August 2021 - 02:11 PM

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So what is formula for HE damage now?

I watched all the videos and thought that now if HE didn't pen there was no damage.

That's how it works on my KV-2 and O-I!

I haven't played it much but I think even 60TP only does minor damage with HE like ~100.

But now your saying a 122m HE shell can damage a 180mm turret?

There is no weak spot on front Emil turret according to tanks.gg except vent on top which no shell goes near.

Anyway HE doesn't spray to the nearest weak spot . that's the old way He worked.

So how can HE damage for half its alpha without penetration, SU-152 alpha 900? (and if it penetrated it cant roll that low only to 75% of alpha)


Edited by SadSack, 03 August 2021 - 02:13 PM.

 

stop the pay2win - we buy premium account isn't that enough? please remove premium ammo/consumables from random battles or make them affordable for ALL PLAYERS


CelestiaLudenberg #7 Posted 03 August 2021 - 05:18 PM

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As above

 

HE before the change: Damage is calculated to be against the thinnest piece of armour within the blast radius of the direct hit location, so usually turret front shots would actually apply the damage to the hull roof, which is significantly less armoured than the impact area, resulting in far higher damage.

 

Now the damage is calculated and applied to where the shot directly hit, which is why shooting turret fronts gives far less damage now.

 

Basically the change has made HE something that requires some level of armour model knowledge to use, rather than just left click spam.


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mttspiii #8 Posted 03 August 2021 - 11:53 PM

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View PostSadSack, on 03 August 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

So what is formula for HE damage now?

I watched all the videos and thought that now if HE didn't pen there was no damage.

 

No damage if it doesn't pen spaced armor, like on O-I sideskirts and Super Pershing. Means HE works better against Mice at frontal hits instead of sideskirt hits.

 

That's how it works on my KV-2 and O-I!

I haven't played it much but I think even 60TP only does minor damage with HE like ~100.

But now your saying a 122m HE shell can damage a 180mm turret?

There is no weak spot on front Emil turret according to tanks.gg except vent on top which no shell goes near.

 

Yep, the "weakspots" are 250mm unangled so they're pretty damn strong

 

Anyway HE doesn't spray to the nearest weak spot . that's the old way He worked.

So how can HE damage for half its alpha without penetration, SU-152 alpha 900? (and if it penetrated it cant roll that low only to 75% of alpha)

 

The 424-alpha looks like either 

 

If it hits armor directly, it deals roughly half damage minus armor thickness, so an Emil's turret is 180mm head-on, 150mm on the sides, and 30mm on the bustle.

A high-rolling 122mm HE (530 average damage) deals 662 damage max, half is 331, minus 150mm from the Emil's turret can still do up 181 damage.

A high-rolling 152mm HE (900 average damage) deals 1125 damage max, half is 562, minus 150mm from the Emil's turret also deals 412 damage. A bit too low for the expected 424 damage.

 

If it hits spaced armor instead, no damage. This means a Super Pershing turret can happily stand against O-I's and KV-2's all day, even though the Emil has the better turret.


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SadSack #9 Posted 04 August 2021 - 03:41 PM

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View Postmttspiii, on 03 August 2021 - 03:53 PM, said:

 

If it hits armor directly, it deals roughly half damage minus armor thickness, so an Emil's turret is 180mm head-on, 150mm on the sides, and 30mm on the bustle.

A high-rolling 122mm HE (530 average damage) deals 662 damage max, half is 331, minus 150mm from the Emil's turret can still do up 181 damage.

A high-rolling 152mm HE (900 average damage) deals 1125 damage max, half is 562, minus 150mm from the Emil's turret also deals 412 damage. A bit too low for the expected 424 damage.

 

If it hits spaced armor instead, no damage. This means a Super Pershing turret can happily stand against O-I's and KV-2's all day, even though the Emil has the better turret.

That's a great explanation THANKS! :)

 

Makes more sense than all those videos.

And I didn't realise the angled front Emil turret armour was thinner but it's made clear at tanks.gg. except it says all shots would "bounce"

https://tanks.gg/tank/emil-i/model?cs=su-152&cl=2011280


As you say Emil turret armour is 180 and 150 and SU-152 average alpha is apparently 910.

So average hit from SU-152 to 'front' Emil turret would be 910/2 - (180+150)/2 = 290.

And max damage should be (910+25%)/2 - 150 = 419.

And lowest roll would be (910-25%)/2 - 250(under gun) = 91.

So from that type of shell I should expect anything from 100-400  (or 700 if gold pens).

Wow how can anyone remember all the armour and shell values in combat?


Edited by SadSack, 04 August 2021 - 03:42 PM.

 

stop the pay2win - we buy premium account isn't that enough? please remove premium ammo/consumables from random battles or make them affordable for ALL PLAYERS


mttspiii #10 Posted 05 August 2021 - 06:45 PM

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View PostSadSack, on 04 August 2021 - 03:41 PM, said:

 

That's a great explanation THANKS! :)

 

Makes more sense than all those videos.

And I didn't realise the angled front Emil turret armour was thinner but it's made clear at tanks.gg. except it says all shots would "bounce"

https://tanks.gg/tank/emil-i/model?cs=su-152&cl=2011280


As you say Emil turret armour is 180 and 150 and SU-152 average alpha is apparently 910.

So average hit from SU-152 to 'front' Emil turret would be 910/2 - (180+150)/2 = 290.

And max damage should be (910+25%)/2 - 150 = 419.

And lowest roll would be (910-25%)/2 - 250(under gun) = 91.

So from that type of shell I should expect anything from 100-400  (or 700 if gold pens).

Wow how can anyone remember all the armour and shell values in combat?

 

Yep, you got the numbers right. You're the first guy I met that actually understood a concept better with the numbers lol.

 

Problem is, there's a lot of numbers, and if you look over at tanks.gg, you'd see just how ridiculous some armor layouts are. Here's a few examples from an old thread:

 

 


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SadSack #11 Posted 09 August 2021 - 12:57 PM

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those are some crazy numbers and what does impacted armour mean?

 

Here's another that seems dubious to me.\

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/UiBWVxg

O-Ni (presuming 15cm gun) (890+25%)/2 - 200 = 356 max.

But battle log clearly show hit for 473.

That's 33% over theoretical max!


Edited by SadSack, 09 August 2021 - 01:34 PM.

 

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mttspiii #12 Posted 10 August 2021 - 10:25 PM

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View PostSadSack, on 09 August 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

those are some crazy numbers and what does impacted armour mean?

 

It just says what armor layers were in the trajectory of the shell. Which means the Type 59 has 14 layers of spaced armor at the gun mantlet before hitting the actual Type 59 itself.

 

View PostSadSack, on 09 August 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

those are some crazy numbers and what does impacted armour mean?

 

Here's another that seems dubious to me.\

 

https://imgur.com/gallery/UiBWVxg

O-Ni (presuming 15cm gun) (890+25%)/2 - 200 = 356 max.

But battle log clearly show hit for 473.

That's 33% over theoretical max!

 

WG has actually tweaked the formula somewhat, but it shouldn't affect damage for high-caliber guns.

 

Have you considered the HE round hitting the 50mm-thick roof? An O-Ni HE shell with a +17.5% RNG can reach 473 damage.

 


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SadSack #13 Posted 11 August 2021 - 12:22 AM

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You can see where both shells landed, I only received those 2 hits. The bounce on the cupola and the pen in front hull.

 

Just as I thought maybe I understand HE changes it seem I have no clue again as I had another try with my KV-2, just keeps saying "screen not penetrated" all the time, even on tanks that have NO spaced armour anywhere!


Edited by SadSack, 11 August 2021 - 01:01 AM.

 

stop the pay2win - we buy premium account isn't that enough? please remove premium ammo/consumables from random battles or make them affordable for ALL PLAYERS


mttspiii #14 Posted 11 August 2021 - 10:52 PM

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WG has not released the official formula for the reworked HE as well; we're using the old formula and it doesn't work as expected now.

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SadSack #15 Posted 13 August 2021 - 10:15 PM

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I'm very curious to know the new formulae, as I get very mixed results, especially on KV-2 HE.

often its 0 "failed to penetrate screen" even though the tank has no screen/spaced armour and shell didn't hit gun or track.

I check it on Battle Hit tho it crashed the game a lot of time when exiting it

 

I thought the idea  of reworked HE was to make damage outcomes MORE predictable but ATM it seem very random!

( PS i know the main idea was just to sell more gold ammo but one of the official  "reasons"  was more predictable damage.)

 

 


 

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SadSack #16 Posted 18 October 2021 - 11:20 PM

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Here's another example of HE changes that makes no sense to me.

Stock gun on WZ-111-1 FT with HE 61mm pen and 530 alpha ( lowest possible rolls 46mm and 397.5HP)

So why is it hitting skorpion G ~35mm frontal hull armour for 190?

 


Edited by SadSack, 18 October 2021 - 11:21 PM.

 

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mttspiii #17 Posted 20 October 2021 - 10:17 AM

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Weird, tanks.gg states the Skorpion G to have only 30mm armor, so it takes extreme angling just to bounce off that HE shell at 46mm minimum penetration

 

So anyway, let's assume that the Skorpion managed to resist getting penned by your HE round.

Likely it hit a destructible object along the way. In WoT, every destructible object shaves off penetration by 25mm, whether it's a spindly little fence or an entire length of a bus, so even at average 61mm penetration rolls a 122mm HE round that punched through a destructible object has only 61-25=36 pen.

Maybe it hit the Driver's vision slit so it technically counts as spaced armor, even though it doesn't even show up with a hitbox on tanks.gg.

Maybe that specific Skorpion G has 35mm armor as a field applique armor instead of just standard factory 30mm.

Maybe a 10mm-thick leaf flew in the shell's path just as it hit the Skorp.

We just don't know, but it happened so let's just assume it did.

 

The calculations are relatively straightforward after that.

530 damage low-rolls as 397.5 damage.

Non-penetration means halved damage so 198.75 damage.

Subtract 1.1 * armor thickness from damage so you get 198.75-(30*1.1)=165.75


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SadSack #18 Posted 22 October 2021 - 06:37 PM

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Well I appreciate your reply and imagination but.

There was no tree it was on top of a ridge  on Siegfried line over looking the field.

Everyone knows WG  nerfed HE to placate the whales who load full gold loadouts and never use HE because they pay2win instead with gold spam and food and directives and full bounty/bond gear!

But they lied and said they nerfed HE to make it "more consistent". Well as far as I can see HE is in now MORE of a lottery than ever!

There seems to be absolutely NO WAY to predetermine if it will do 0 damage or 1/2 damage or full or some weird mix in-between!


 

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