28 replies to this topic

[Ezz]

I get the feeling you whooshed at the previous point so i'll expand.

 

Influence depends on a variety of factors (ability to do/spot damage, mobility, armor etc.) but generally speaking arty have less than any other class. Anyway, you appear to agree that arty has less influence. But the critical bit is less influence is bad for good players as their win rates will trend downwards towards the mean and good for bad players because their win rates will trend up. For average players it matters little. Or to put another way, think of influence as the range of win rates between the worst and best players. So say it's 40 - 60% for one class, while only 45-55% in another, then we can say that that second class has less influence.

 

 

As to the armor mechanic, you missed the point i suspect. The point being that arty doesn't care about the armor mechanic. You see red tank, you click. That's about as complicated as it gets. RNG alone makes the majority of the armor / weakspot / pen mechanic largely irrelevant. In other words getting good at that mechanic (or the others listed earlier) is far less critical.

 

Agree with the arty bot cost summation. The fact they are better camouflaged within the player base is likely just icing. As has been said before, it's a class which doesn't require much in the way of ability or really anything beyond very simple algorithmic gameplay. See red tank. Click. This just underscores why as a class it's on the fringes. It simply doesn't fit in with the gameplay of other classes in terms of requirements.

 

As to your final paragraph, you appear to be getting a bit strawman with your argument. Granted you may have simply misread. But the issue as described above is that given the lower influence, arty tends to perform better for those with less ability. Precisely because of its lesser influence. Or to put it another way, say someone's a bottom of the barrel player in a high influence tank - they're going to run low 40s or even lower. In arty, thanks to its low influence dragging them up towards the mean, they'll likely do better. As to evidence of who plays arty most, it wasn't the point, but fwiw the early ranked examples of bads doing ok in arty were plentiful and hence led to wg adjusting their rules for future iterations. Even in more recent iterations the arty queue was often the longest.

 

Meanwhile your note about what wg is trying to achieve by pushing arty further to the fringes is tough to answer for certain. Wg's thinking tends to have it's own set of rules, but one thing that is pretty clear is that they felt arty as a mechanic needed significant adjustment. Hence the extent of the changes they made. Clearly wg were in the same echo chamber as many of the players i guess.

 

Edited by Ezz, 23 November 2021 - 08:04 PM.

[The_Big_M]

Subjective assesments aside, I can agree with most of what you said above. Though statements like "It simply doesn't fit in with the gameplay of other classes in terms of requirements." are a broad brush and unsupported. Just because some can play it simply doesn't mean "it's on the fringes" and even less "It simply doesn't fit in with the gameplay of other classes in terms of requirements."

 

For example, I could make a sweeping generalisation that being a light is easy. Find a bush. Camp all game. Don't shoot. Harvest assistance damage. Conclusion: "It simply doesn't fit in with the gameplay of other classes in terms of requirements." And sure, some can play like that. They won't reach the heights, but they'll grind away, contributing a bit. Fairly easy too. Others can even do the same.

 

And the same with arty. Just because some can play simply doesn't mean that gameplay of itself differs from other tanks, as pointed out earlier. And nor is it the only way to play. Bots _do not_ 3 mark arty. To play them well requires skill - and some targeted gameplay - just like most other tanks. So there's no unique reason that applies to arty that doesn't apply to other tanks.

 

As to the last point, quite possibly. While it's fashionable to accuse WG of not listening when something doesn't suit someone, it's obvious they do listen. However, logically they can't listen to everyone - and more importantly they also have their own motivations as a business to take decisions they do. However, as they listen, and there is a number of people who are vocal attacking arty, that position gets heard. And just because something is done because something is heard doesn't automatically make it a good, fair or even justified decision. Look at politics for example. 

[dirty_clicker]

Ezz, on 23 November 2021 - 03:42 PM, said:

Was more curious about his use of echo chamber to be honest. 

 

My main reason for the use of the word is because of how viciously people seem to attack any notion of arty having a useful role in the game or any other positive comments about it, without much logical discussions which also apparently happens in an echo chamber.

 

It may be because the better players see the below quote (which I generally agree with but lacks any statistical evidence in this forum post as of now) as a negative more than a positive.

Most streamers are in the "better players" bracket, and most of those are quite avidly against arty and treat it like some (or a certain) disease. I feel many players are just regurgitating their opinions, which then further strengthens that message for everyone including said streamers. 

Ezz, on 23 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

Anyway, you appear to agree that arty has less influence. But the critical bit is less influence is bad for good players as their win rates will trend downwards towards the mean and good for bad players because their win rates will trend up. For average players it matters little. Or to put another way, think of influence as the range of win rates between the worst and best players. So say it's 40 - 60% for one class, while only 45-55% in another, then we can say that that second class has less influence.

 

Also, it's quite rare that I find a discussion on arty that is based on reasoning and logic rather than hate and memes, though I don't really have any evidence to back this up.

This thread may be a rare exception, hopefully....

 

Edited by dirty_clicker, 24 November 2021 - 09:36 AM.

[Ezz]

So the streamers are in the echo chamber too....

 

But as to statistical evidence, we could just go with typical win rates of arty vs all other classes by tier. Typically the arty clump around the middle of the win rate ranges mostly between about 48 and 50% (from tomato.gg). They are rarely in the top 10-15 win rates at a tier. Similarly they are also rarely in the bottom 10-15 (noting if i had the time i'd put this into a more meaningful percentage because number of tanks by tier differs - but meh). This indicates either arty is almost always played by very average players, or they are all very balanced, or as suggested above, their scope for influence on a battle is lower compared to other classes.

[AlexTheKid72]

And that's the problem.
There is a false dichotomy with vaccines. And it is deliberate, and fed like all mind control with fear.
The real issue is mandates and the removal of freedom in the name of safety.
The vaxed are afraid of the unvaxed by design. The unvaxed are afraid of the vaccine by design. This is all to get us to hate each other while our rights and freedom are being trampled - the only important issue in the current pandemic.

I will make my informed decision in 55 years when the FDA finally releases phase 3 trial data in totality. At the same time I am glad my mum is vaccinated so it's less likely I kill her if I accidentally go visit with asymptomatic covid.

So WarGaming have us doing the same here. Is arty good or bad? It's both.
The changes were made to reduce arty ability to make profit while keeping them annoying for the other side. 
Here we are discussing the good and bad again lol.

The powers that be have been good at baking this cake for a very long time. Echo chambers are deliberate.
 

Edited by AlexTheKid72, 24 November 2021 - 10:34 AM.

[dirty_clicker]

Ezz, on 24 November 2021 - 09:59 AM, said:

So the streamers are in the echo chamber too....

 

But as to statistical evidence, we could just go with typical win rates of arty vs all other classes by tier. Typically the arty clump around the middle of the win rate ranges mostly between about 48 and 50% (from tomato.gg). They are rarely in the top 10-15 win rates at a tier. Similarly they are also rarely in the bottom 10-15 (noting if i had the time i'd put this into a more meaningful percentage because number of tanks by tier differs - but meh). This indicates either arty is almost always played by very average players, or they are all very balanced, or as suggested above, their scope for influence on a battle is lower compared to other classes.

 

The definition of an echo chamber is apparently ""an environment where a person only encounters information or opinions that reflect and reinforce their own."" according to Wikipedia. Doesn't really matter if it's the majority or not, it's the fact that any counterarguments are disregarded or attacked/diverted.

 

 

About the statistical evidence, I do agree with your method and it's probably going to end up saying that arty has a lower skill cap/higher skill bottom(if you call it that).

I don't see how that's a bad thing though, especially if the mean WR is close to the server WR. It just means 3 man platoons (not that you can do those anymore) can't carry as hard in arty compared to other classes like mediums. It may be bad for the 3 players in the platoon, but I would argue is better for the other 27 players in the game. Having the fate of a win/loss in the RNG of getting a unicum platoon or not doesn't seem like a fun gaming experience.

[Ezz]

The toon factor I hadn't considered. And you do realize you've broken our echo chamber...

[dirty_clicker]

Ezz, on 24 November 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

And you do realize you've broken our echo chamber...

 

That depends on how my posts are taken, with (a)some thought and logical criticism, or with (b)personal attack about me being a clicker, memes, or outright denial

 

But my main objective here isn't to label everyone here as "being in an echochamber", it's more about having a constructive argument about the role of arty.

 

For example, I believe the recent HE nerfs strongly contributed to the meta shifting towards strong turreted hulldown tanks, especially in ranked.

I admit this is partially due to the number of players being reduced and other tanks such as the 60TP getting effected as well: However, it feels like the role of arty has been completely negated, which in turn negatively affected light tanks as their spotting was worth less and in turn TDs since lights have less incentives to spot. Hence the incline of the heavium meta, to massively oversimplify.

That doesn't mean I think we should go back to pre 0.7.x when we had 8+ artys/team, that was also broken and unbalanced. (Though I personally have to admit I would have loved to play arty during that time)

I just believe that the game should aim for diversity in terms of playable tanks, and recent changes are going against it.

[Ezz]

I tend to agree the HE nerfs appear to have made the meta worse, however i'd far prefer a weakspot related solution as opposed to an arty one. Noting also i see most of that driver as being the HE nerf to tanks rather than the coinciding nerf to arty. The shit part of the meta was mostly about all the silly hull down face slapping that happens between tanks, regardless of arty.

 

And yeah, old school arty could be rather hilarious. I recall getting a top gun just driving around himmelsdorf in the hummel. The GwP was also golden in its early iterations. At that stage i'd not gone up other lines, so can't really comment, but they could all be brutal. As a scout now you have to sort of hope for spotting damage and mostly from direct fire tanks. Back then the expectation was that anything lit anywhere would get blapped and blapped hard.